How to “really” work with MIDI grooves

[bvaughn]

Can anyone point me to a great reference for how to use MIDI grooves in the best way to create a song?

Let’s say I have one of Superior 2’s MIDI files that I think would work great for a verse in a song.

Now, I can add fills here and there to liven that up and make it sound even more real.

But, is it “enough” to just copy this MIDI file for the majority of the verse? Is that really authentic for what a real drummer would do? I guess in most songs, drummers do try to maintain the same groove (with various fills), right?

The problem is that I’m not a drummer, so I’ve never really studied drums. So, I’m not really sure if I hear a Foo Fighters song (for example) if the drummer is really playing basically the same thing on each verse (again, with various fills and velocity differences).

One thing I have thought of playing around with is this: http://www.midi-plugins.de/

There is a “humanize” MIDI plugin that might make a repeated groove sound better since each time it is played it wouldn’t be the same thing.

I could probably also look more into Jamstix. I have version 2, but have never learned it properly (I’ve tried, but it doesn’t seem very intuitive to me).

It would seem the fastest way would be to work with existing MIDI grooves. So I was curious if anyone had some tips for what you do if you use the same MIDI groove for each verse or chorus (including if it is something to not really worry about).

Thanks for any advice!
Brandon

Topic

[Whitten]

I’m not sure if there are any reference works.
Drumming is so subjective.
Every player constructs their part differently, and often the songwriter and producer will have an input.
It’s also highly dependent on the genre.
A progressive rock or fusion drummer will play a lot more notes and with more variation than a mainstream pop drummer.
horses for courses.
My own tenet is ‘less is more’.
I don’t regularly play jazz, fusion or progressive mind you.
But for basic rock I would start out with a simple part that fits your needs.
Keep it fairly simple throughout, but perhaps edit in changes when the music demands that you do.
Again, my own personal approach is to tell the story of the song through the drums.
like literature, there’s a beginning, a middle and an end.
A simple construction therefore might be – groove 1 at the beginning, groove 1+ for the first chorus or second verse (to taste). groove 2 for the middle of the story (this is often a ‘middle 8’, ‘bridge’ or instrumental solo section), groove 1++ for the last chorus or outro.
My little plus signs (+) might indicate a few more open hi-hat accents or a few ghost notes. A ++ (for the end chorus or outro) might indicate the verse groove but with a switch from hi-hat to ride cymbal.
You are building the story of the song.
My final comment is that drum programmers often make drum parts too detailed and over complicated.
The top studio players will zone in on a drum part that works perfectly for the song (and blends with the bass for example) and only embellish it when necessary. A fill from verse into chorus might be as simple as an open hi-hat flick, or a little snare skip.
The difference between the verse and chorus might simply be the difference between a tight closed hi-hat and a slightly more open hi-hat.

[Tom]

You need Jamstix. Version 3 will be out shortly.
 
Jamstix has its own rhythms, it can read midi files or you can program it. Then it add its own variations during groove, adds fills etc. It also has several modelled “drummers” playing different styles.
 
Whereas I like Whitten’s drumming, the fact is I can just as easily start with Jamstix and get excellent results. I start by programming where I want kick and snare in the bars, then I let Jamstix add hats, cymbals and humanization. For fills I let it generate a fill, until one I like comes out.
 
There are sliders and things for determining velocity, length of fills, components of fills etc … Jamstix has its own drums, but works fine with Superior too, although it takes some figuring out to set it up.
 
As for support Jamstix is the only software I have where support is as good as you get it here with Toontrack (presence of developers). Maybe because Jamstix is basically a one-man products, I guess.

[jbraner]

I’ve never used Jamstix – so have no opinion about it.

All I’d say is that you can’t get much more “humanised” than the MIDI files already are. They’ve been played in by Chris (Whitten) and Nir-Z etc etc

I rely on *this* to see how a real drummer would play a part…

John Braner
http://johnbraner.bandcamp.com
http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
and all the major streaming/download sites.
-------------------------------------------------
Reaper 7 x64 (latest version), Windows 11 Pro 64 bit, AMD Ryzen 3950x, 32GB RAM, MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk Wifi mobo (not using wifi though), NVIDIA GEForce GT710 video card, MOTU Ultralite AVB audio interface

[bvaughn]

Thanks so much everyone for WONDERFUL information.

I guess I was just a bit worried if I found a 2 measure MIDI file, and then copied/pasted it for an entire verse whether that would sound exactly like a real drummer.

Thanks!
Brandon

[Whitten]

ORIGINAL: bvaughn
I guess I was just a bit worried if I found a 2 measure MIDI file, and then copied/pasted it for an entire verse whether that would sound exactly like a real drummer.

Pretty much.
But if there is an opportunity to pick out a single moment in the bass part, or the vocal with a little drum edit, it’ll sound even more like a real drummer.
Imagine the drummer is listening to the music, not repeating themselves like a machine.
But don’t forget……. less is more.

[Greg]

Awesome tips Chris.  Thanks for posting.  Was actually just listening to the first edie brickell album today

Intel 13900K, Windows 11 , Cubase Pro 12.0.50, Studio One 5.2.1.64495, 64GB RAM, UA Apollo x4 Thunderbolt, RME UFX – USB 96K, 64 sample buffer size, Radeon 570, 42″ 4k monitor

MIDI controller: Roland A-37, Jamstik Studio, MCU Pro + expander
Drum Brain: Yamaha DTX 900, RHH135 hihat, 2 crash and 1 ride cymbal, 4 toms.

[brendan]

ORIGINAL: tombuur
You need Jamstix. Version 3 will be out shortly.

Ahoy fellow JS /superior combo user !
Problem with JS is (for me ) the default kit mapping for superior 2 won’t play double hits written in JS editor- it just plays back single snare hit (D1)
I’d be real interested if you could load up a couple double snare hits and see if they play correctly for you ( if so please tell me your secret ingredient )
After investing in superior 2 -newyork kits -foundry , I’m hooked on the sounds /processing power/ live midi performance to the point that I’ll probably be using
SD2 for most everything from here in . Problem is ive got piles of old JS songs i want to redo drum wise and this is a real show stopper
That aside , JS is a very innovative program has really good support.

Cheers !

[Tom]

I have replied to the above question in a private email since this is a bit off–thread.

[Kip Count]

Your play-by-play below is very helpful. Thanks so much for posting this.
It’s made me realize I need to work less at making things over-complicated in order to sound more like a “real” drummer played the part.  Don’t get me wrong, I keep things relatively simple, but you now have me thinking more about accents rather than full-blown drum fills every time a transition comes around.  Thanks Chris.

Kip

ORIGINAL: Whitten

I’m not sure if there are any reference works.
Drumming is so subjective.
Every player constructs their part differently, and often the songwriter and producer will have an input.
It’s also highly dependent on the genre.
A progressive rock or fusion drummer will play a lot more notes and with more variation than a mainstream pop drummer.
horses for courses.
My own tenet is ‘less is more’.
I don’t regularly play jazz, fusion or progressive mind you.
But for basic rock I would start out with a simple part that fits your needs.
Keep it fairly simple throughout, but perhaps edit in changes when the music demands that you do.
Again, my own personal approach is to tell the story of the song through the drums.
like literature, there’s a beginning, a middle and an end.
A simple construction therefore might be – groove 1 at the beginning, groove 1+ for the first chorus or second verse (to taste). groove 2 for the middle of the story (this is often a ‘middle 8’, ‘bridge’ or instrumental solo section), groove 1++ for the last chorus or outro.
My little plus signs (+) might indicate a few more open hi-hat accents or a few ghost notes. A ++ (for the end chorus or outro) might indicate the verse groove but with a switch from hi-hat to ride cymbal.
You are building the story of the song.
My final comment is that drum programmers often make drum parts too detailed and over complicated.
The top studio players will zone in on a drum part that works perfectly for the song (and blends with the bass for example) and only embellish it when necessary. A fill from verse into chorus might be as simple as an open hi-hat flick, or a little snare skip.
The difference between the verse and chorus might simply be the difference between a tight closed hi-hat and a slightly more open hi-hat.

Mac Mini M1 | Studio One 6 | PreSonus 68c | EZD3

[nexus77]

I would love to know what your response was!  Is there a way around this issue?

[Author]

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