whats your latency? lets compare

[flipflop]

Hi all

i just purchased sd3 and as usual latency is key. ive spend a few days reading all about it just about everywhere….

im looking to upgrade some hardware maybe, it can be done cheap depending on the requirements for recording etc…or very expensive.
this is the main reason for this Thread.

my personal goal is not to have UBER recording facillities, i just want to play drums with minimal latency, but all UBER hardware freaks are most welcome to post latencies.
lets all compare.. 🙂

my rig is a heavy overclocked watercooled quadcore 3570k cpu, with onboard realtek audio and 12 gigs of heavy overclocked ram…..using asio4all.
the bus is also overclocked so basically the realtek chip is also overclocked.
latency monitoring of all drivers yields no more then max 0,1ms and 0,2ms for nvidia kernel.
looking at the midi input its a roland mk2, and i play on a td12 module. the latency on usb I/O is no more then 0,1ms according to latency monitoring,
the realtek audiodriver has a latency of > 0,01ms

i can get 4,6ms output latency in SD3 with 128 samples and 1ms wave offset. 96 samples and crackling starts…

p.s i had to hack superior drummer via reg settings to use these values….seems the program has some internal test when asio settings are pushed back into sd3 after asio4all edit?
anyways it works with no problems with the reg hack and 4,6ms…..but i want less latency……always on the hunt for less. 🙂

so what can be done?. usb and firewire TB etc ,,,,are all external interfaces….they can never be as good as a chip onboard on the bus or pci express.
options:
1. my rig is from 2012 about and maybe just getting the latest cpu and MB with onboard sound will do for another 1-2ms reduction. however my cpu utilizations when playing is not even 15%, still the onboard soundcard is probably not the best… its a hd realtek. but the quality in the sound is great.
The low cpu usage (12%) when playing a track in sd3, leads me to think that bus speed and all transport layers are key….not so much a new cpu….its the new chipsets and sound chips… if anything.

2. bite the apple and get a RME pci express interface. but i dont need 20 channels and 90% of what u get for 800 bucks. i just need speed and sound. and maybe a highspeed midi interface include.

3 maybe try another mid end pci express

if you have a latency for youre setup please post what hardware youre using. 🙂 it will save all of us the hazzle of trial and error.
thanks in advance.

update: i did try a presoneus usb interface a couple of years ago…and as logic dictates, its never gonna give more then 6ms output latency. i returned it. the sounds was nice though. 🙂

Topic

[flipflop]

small update:
the gamer community is kicking the latency doors due to E gaming , you want to hear the enemy before before you see him.
i ordered a intel 8600k z370 setup…the latest gear. i needed an upgrade anyways….

the gaming industry is moving forward,,, allthough its not a RME card for sure….. 🙂

i ordered the gaming pro msi board which comes with 2 realtek 1220 sound chips… one for rear speaker and one for front. spookey setup ive never seen before…focus is lag and quality….
its located on a shielded circuit , got a headphone amplifier , seperate pcb layers for right and left channel, some capacitors to warm the sound..etc..

what all this translates into im not sure yet…. we will see next week when i set it up.
the only thing im wooried about is the latency on new rigs…..u might think say ddr4 4000mhz must be faster then ddr 1600. well its not….it has more bandwidth though…which is useless now a days. But….it has way more latency…like CAS 15 instead of my current 2cas, 1 command time good old DDR 3.

my goal is near realtime for playing or something like playing my module directly…:-)
……when i want quality i just pipe my sound into my denon amp via coax spdif.

[Olof Westman]

You cannot apply the wisdoms of gaming here. In the audio world low latency is accomplished by having a soundcard with native ASIO drivers and running it with as small a buffer as possible. The better CPU and RAM you have the smaller buffer you can run, so a reasonably good rig is useful too. I guess similar rules, as in gaming, apply for all the stuff you need to turn off in Windows in order to make sure that resources aren’t suddenly waisted on something irrelevant.

So, try a soundcard with native ASIO support. Borrow one. It doesn’t have to be an RME.

Here is a good page https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209072289-How-to-reduce-latency

Olof Westman - Toontrack
Coder

[flipflop]

@Olle said:
You cannot apply the wisdoms of gaming here. In the audio world low latency is accomplished by having a soundcard with native ASIO drivers and running it with as small a buffer as possible. The better CPU and RAM you have the smaller buffer you can run, so a reasonably good rig is useful too. I guess similar rules, as in gaming, apply for all the stuff you need to turn off in Windows in order to make sure that resources aren’t suddenly waisted on something irrelevant.

So, try a soundcard with native ASIO support. Borrow one. It doesn’t have to be an RME.

Here is a good page https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209072289-How-to-reduce-latency  

hi thanks for your reply. 🙂

i got the new rig running: z370 msi gaming pro ac, 3ghz ra, intel 8600k 6 core running 5 ghz, realtek 1220 (awesome headphone amp btw) saves me a mixer in my latency loop.
im down to 64 samples 2.8ms + 1.5 buffer on the new rig . So i guess it feels better now. the reatek even had an asio driver which was new to me….it sux however. 🙂
havent measured actual loopback latency though…
so… 2.8 + 1.5 + 1-2ms for midi , 6ms midi generation for roland td12…. gives about 12ms, to that one must add what happens after the driver….maybe 5-6ms more.
it feels alot better though.

following your advice im looking for a non pciEx RME card now…..but theres not many….and the reported latency are sometimes just hype…its also what happens after the driver which is key to success. but since using higher sample rates lowers latency or so i read …..something with native asio would give even lower latencies i assume.
the asio4all is only 44khz….or at least i can only get it to work with 44.

i found only one candidate maybe you have a few tips on specific cards? 🙂

the maya44 will fill my needs for a quarter of the RME price,, except it lacks a faster midi interface than roland mk2, but im not suspecting midi to be the big culprit in latency.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/esi_maya44_ex.htm

it all looks good on paper….but…i also found this information about the card which explains its REAL latency(loopback). which is not all that good …
im not an expert and maybe this guy is off track ,,,,but considering the huge amount of latency information on his site….well. 🙂
its not the exact same version card though.
http://www.michalkaszczyszyn.com/en/tutorials/esi_maya44_xte.html

i checked the ableton page….and it dosnet really give any advice on which cards will work…

have nice day

edit: i found the emu 44 pciE also…. im gonna look into it. http://www.creative.com/emu/products/product.aspx?pid=20022

[adam_smith117]

Hi, this thread is a little old so im not sure if youre still active on here for me to ask you some things regarding latency?

Cheers

Adam

[Henrik]

adam_smith117 wrote:

Hi, this thread is a little old so im not sure if youre still active on here for me to ask you some things regarding latency?

Shoot! We’re always ready 🙂

Henrik Ekblom - User Experience Designer
Toontrack

[flipflop]

i finally measured my RTL and its better after i messed with some settings in windows,,,also disabling other devices gives a few ms,,,measured with loopback cable.  output -> input on a realtek 1220

16bit, 48kHz , buffer offset 0, 64 samples = 6,3 RTL.  thats actually very good for a onboard soundcard,

alot lower then some high priced audio interfaces…. allthough still not rme etc class.

i also tried my nvidia rtx 2080… the driver IO is insane low at 0.2ms with 4 samples buffer…yes u read correctly… that baby can run 4 samples buffer lol.

i played a serious blastbeat in SD3 under the testing.

i had to hack asio4alls lowest latency via regedit to try that,,,but hey it works, however its not useable since it outputs a digital signal which you would have to convert back again…..maybe with a ultra fast dac i dunno…but i hardly think its a very good path.. if only nvidia would make a headphone out connected rite to the analoque part b4 conversion to digital we would be flying… 🙂

 

its close now the feel…..and alot better …but i still lack a few Ms shaped off,…..

gonna try and investigate module latencies,,,,my td12 might be slower then say td30  …even 2-3 ms would be a serious upgrade now.

then maybe a audio interface,,,,if you want to play ultra realistic on your edrums via VST, you have to be prepared to spend alot of bucks i guess….:-)

but hey its actually useable now….and for a low price in total compared to an expensive audio interface.

• This post was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by flipflop.

[flipflop]

small update….but big news. 🙂 i thought id share this so others can save time and frustration in getting something really cool out of your VST.from a drummers perspective.

i ended up with 5,8 ms on the realtek 1220 with a overclocked pc main bus at 103 mhz. and buffersize 48, 48khz, with the asio4all hack.

Thats actually useable, and can be done by anyone who has a somewhat powerfull PC.

now comes the really fun part:

after spending 7 years or so investigating audio interfaces and latency i ended up buying the Focusrite Solo 3rd gen.

that shaves another 3ms of ….

its 2.9ms rtl with 96khz and buffer set to 16(which in reality is 32, some strange focusrite marketing).  🙂

ofc im gonna try and lower that further, i just got it an hour ago….but it works just fine as it is.

That does the trick. now i can play and it feels more or less like im playing the module instead,.,,,,its almost perfect.

The 3rd gen focusrite is small and nifty..it lacks alot of stuff, but if you dont need 100 adat tracks and whatever a rme card can offer, and just want to play in realtime…its now possible on a low budget. The sound is better then the realtek ofc. and the latency is impressive..its on par with the saffire pro 14 which is more or less the best in regards to latency of ALL audio interfaces at 44khz.

check here for latency education and proff : http://www.michalkaszczyszyn.com/en/tutorials/the_lowest_round_trip_latency_audio_interface_for_PC.html

and check hes list where you will find the 2nd gen solo almost on par with the pro 14.

i also found that my TD 12 module is 4ms in total with audio generation so…..the midi packet construction and sending is 1 >1,5ms max.

i found a post with some who mesaured it by splitting the trigger cable and send and record one polartity to one channel, and the audio out to another…then you can measure the time it takes from you strike the head to a sound is produced accurately….very clever thinking. we like that. 🙂

i can report he TD12 is 3.96 ms in total, midi and audio generation……so no point in buying a new module with latency in mind. oh yea and the old ddrum thingie is 2.54ms….haha… why are we still talking latency when stuff made in the 80s is faster……it even has crosstalk it has to compensate for before making the audio.

all self playing tests done with the california punk set ….slightly modified…but lots of bus use and stacks etc…SP3 use almost noone of my resources …maybe 20% cpu at high loads…its a 6 core.

so im using now

1. a very fast computer…. im using a 5ghz OC intel 8600k with 103 mhz base clock,  im not sure you need that amount of power with the external interface though.
2. a roland mk2….with 5 pin midi cable, 5 meters. latency about 2ms in total from i strike the drum to the midi hits SP3.
3. Focusrite 3rd gen solo. the whole product range is similar so if you need more bells and whistles just get another model…

so…. midi about 2ms

audio 2.9.

thats about 5 ms in total. very very nice…the td12 is native around 4.  5ms is 1,6m distance from ex. a speaker. monitors are the same distance or further away in live situations. except in ear ofc. 🙂

 

small question to staff: what is the native sampling rate and bit depth in SP3? its 96khz and 24bit i assume?

have fun

[marvharv]

Flipflop  – Your dedication to terminating latency is awesome!

All (including flip flop) -Ive just downloaded ezdrummer2. I’m just getting my head around all this latency stuff.
I have a roland TD30 and I want to play EZdrummer live. currently the latency is unacceptable, i literally so far have pluged a generic usb lead in from my module to my laptop and downloaded asio4all, which certainly helped but Its still not acceptable. Trawling the internet, it seems that buying a third party USB audio interface will make the biggest difference

Questions
a)am i correct in this assumption?Can anyone reccomend one?

b)if yes, what other parts of my setup will impact latency? I have a pretty quick (2018) MSI gaming laptop i7 7th gen with USB3 outputs DDR4 ram

 

Many thanks in advance

[flipflop]

welcome to the latency party. 🙂

a. yea you need a interface..

b. ur computer specs seems fine. you will just need to optimize ur system for audio a bit.

u can just use the roland usb cable for midi only…or try the 5 pin plug which some say is faster….ive noticed my roland MK2 external midi to usb. dosnt seem to have a polling rate, much like a usb disk. still fussy on what that means.

i spend a long time finding the focusrite. However it might not be the best in live situations,,,,allthough after tweaking my OS a bit and moving the device to a USB 3 port instead of a C type gen 2, ive had no issues.(its 2.0 device).

i had a few clicks when playing youtube on the focus while playing drums. just a very rare click here and there…now its gone…so maybe good for live, im not sure.

the headphone amp is also pretty good ….at least for my headphones.

if u want to go live maybe a baby face pro is better but its also expensive… it can do 3.1 ms 96khz ive read…but with the focus i can run at 192khz which give me 2,6ms. you can buy em used maybe for half. the focus run at 2.9ms 96khz on my rig, which should make it faster then a a RME babyface pro. if one can trust these results…:-)

The RTL utility dosent account for the input latency..(we just need outputs.) so if one subtracts the input latency from the RTL result…we end up with maybe 1.5-2ms not sure how the driver actually works, but USB 2 has a worst case latency of  1 ms at 1000hz polling rate…

so yea any usb device will work….however you wont find one with a much lover latency then the focus even at a higher price. and some of them have HIGH latencies,,,,,so be ware.

you can  check this database…mind the results are all in 44khz or 48…cant remember. (you want to up that to 96++ to reduce IO latency):

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/618474-audio-interface-low-latency-performance-data-base-107.html

why not just get into the water and measure your current latency…. so you have a offset to start with.The asio4all driver can be hacked if you know how to edit the registry so u can go lower then 64 buffer. also make sure u set all latency buffers to zero, try diff settings. i havent had any succes hacking the bitrate however..

not sure you can actually loopback test the roland however…its still early here…if it has inputs and outputs then maybe..

oh and disable local control on ur module (midi settings)……if you dont know what local control is….you need to seriously start reading about all kind of latency related materials. 🙂 theres no value in my information if you dont speak my language… 🙂

https://www.oblique-audio.com/free/rtlutility

GL

• The post has been modified 2 times, last modified 4 years, 5 months ago by flipflop.

[flipflop]

oh yea the focusrite saffire pro 14 can be found for nothing on ebay….its supposed to be very good also. its thunderbolt however.

and you might want to look at something with more outputs so you can separate kicks snare and overhead etc,….the guy in the soundboot makes the best sound. 🙂 lots of posts around the net about that,.,,

• This post was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by flipflop.

[Mike_Olson5]

The best I’ve ever achieved was 2.0ms RTL using a Presonus Quantum 2 Thunderbolt Interface @ 48khz / 32 samples.  Not bad for an interface that can typically be had for under $500.

Sadly, the TB port on my old laptop died so I’m back to USB.  My current interface is a Zoom UAC-2 USB3.0 that measures 3.5ms RTL at the same settings.

I’ve noticed that after recent Win10 updates I’m having trouble with clicks/pops that weren’t there before.  May need to go back to Win7/8.

1

Thanked by: redlogic

[flipflop]

hey thanks for the sharing mike …:-)  the quantum is a nice device,,,,but also very exp… 🙂 however its still not pci latency.

hmm i had simular issues with the scarlett….not sure its related…but its probably not windows..its USB…btw u sure u reinstalled ur TB driver…?  windows sometimes removes manually added devices in device manager when updating revision. i loose my xbox remote everytime. 🙂  the reason i state its not in core windows the audio issues bottlenecks are resting, well you will have to read a head for more info and some latency pics attached. 🙂

(the hdsp i talk about later also exist in a pcmcia format(dirt cheap) …not sure how that will work in ur laptop however. 🙂 )

back to the latency battle:

important update: im going to return the focusrite scarlett 3rd gen. dont buy this device for drumming…..or heavy audio !!!

i feel bad about recommending it without in depth testing. it wont happen again. sorry. return it if u can… 🙂

it works well….sounds good …but then again not….ive been almost stripping my pc down to nothing…taking off all usb stuff and what not. optimizing all settings for audio, finding culprits with process latency monitoring etc….and it works but its very sensitive for IO even when the pc is dedicated to audio. resulting in occasional noise the usual stuff. i mean i spend like 2 weeks optimizing this thing, and still no go. USB just sux unless its maybe thunderbolt 3.

focusrites sorta strange buffersizes work ….but then they dont in some scenarios. it gets really annoying.

Dont get USB devices unless its uad or maybe rme or something extreme. USB still just sux for audio due to the polling scheme of large data packets.

i kind of knew that, but i trusted maybe the USB C port announced added some new performance….but the SOLO is really a low speed usb with a polling rate of 1000hz. or 1ms. if its a highspeed its lame due to highspeed usb 2 supporting 8000hz which gives a polling latency of 0,125ms.

but the business just dosnt want to compete with 20 year old technology from RME.

i got me RME hdsp 9632……its a pci card, but does it rock…yea ….no latency, no problems, nothing. i even run powersave mode on the CPU…intels stepping….no problem. all audio optimization setting are rolled back to normal it just works without. please note im just playing drums and watching music etc  at the same time. you might need high performance for heacy use of the thing.

my cpu load dropped to about 8% in SP3 playing a blast beat. 25% in the drum tab. the 8 is then audio related i assume.

im at 1.7ms measured RTL at 192khz, 128buffer

and  2.1ms at 96khz, 64buffer. subtract the input from that and where flying. im also using the high speed midi interface which comes with it. i even tested running  5 youtube vids and SP3 blast beats at the same time….no problem. im using a modified preset of california punk for realistic realtime SP3 usage….it has lots of stacked drums and mixer effects etc…

so now my SP3 latency is LOWER then my native td12.  mission complete. 🙂

the td12 still rocks….its all about the interface is the conclusion. which someone also stated earlier ..:-)

im just gonna drop the bomb in this thread for the few readers we are anyways.

the hdsp 9632 is DIRT cheap on ebay. and you can use it with a decent pci express to pci adapter. get a startech.

cost me 100 dollars total with a balanced breakout cable…please dont share that fact with too many…..we dont want the pci prices fluctuating. 🙂

and we dont want rme to stop making windows 10 drivers…which i dont think they will…but u never know if to many starts using their old cards again… 🙂

however a driver is a driver and it works like a charm in its current state, so it will be useable in windows 10 forever i guess.

GL all

[Phenix 2]

some latency for the video when I play a track with the 2.1.8 version

bad 🙁

You like drums, iconic sounds and drum plugins ?
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[Author]

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