[zazelsodo]

Scott, I’m going to “assume” that S2.3 is 64-bit as well, since I’m crossgrading?

Thanks again for your, always, straight answers.

[zazelsodo]

Leevious,

According to Rogue and Scott, the MetalHeads EZX is performing as expecting. It appears to be optimized for harder, more aggressive hits. Meaning snare drums with lower velocities, such as flutter snares in blast beats, will not carry the same emphasis. There is nothing to fix, so it would appear that you can either accept it for what it is, and move on, or request to return the product like I am.

I would consider this matter, for me at least, resolved.

Scott and Rogue…thank you so much for your time and information. I apologize if I was rude at any point…I realize sometimes that trying to write very descriptive processes can sound condescending, and that was never the intention. I am completely in love with the Toontrack products, and appreciate the level and speed of responses in the forums.

Thanks again for everything!
-zaz

[zazelsodo]

Guys,

1) I know what Drum view is, I use Sonar
2) I thought the same thing, that duration should have nothing to do with it. But looking in the Event viewer, it was the ONLY thing that I could obviously note between the two midi parts

OBVIOUSLY the snare velocity is different, it’s a fill that came from your songwriter fillpack. If there was no velocity change then it wouldn’t sound like a snare roll.

And yes, the groove at the beginning and after the fill are from Toontrack. They’re from the MIDI library that accompanies DFH.

But your change brings me back to the original comparison that I was making. That the fill sounds COMPLETELY different with Drumkit from Hell. The snares never lose their punch. If I have to go into every snare and crash that is in everyone one of the fills that is in the Songwriters fillpack, then the EZX is useless to me. There’s nothing “quick” and useful about it. Might as well stay with DFH.

3) Are you saying that because MetalHeads is newer it’s more sensitive to note velocities than DFH? So much so, that a hit in DFH at 111, and a hit in MetalHeads at the same velocity will sound SO drastically different, that Metalheads almost sound like ghost notes

So I guess I’m left with the only thing left to do…since it’s now obvious, to me at least, that Metalheads doesn’t perform as expected with the very midi pack libraries that you guys sell, is there anyway I can return it? De-Authorize it, so it won’t work on my computer, and get my money back? It’s unfortunate that I won’t be able to use it, as it sounds great when it works…but I’d rather spend my $$$ on something that I may actually use, like the Nashville EZX.

Thanks for all the hard work and effort guys, but I just don’t think you’re hearing and seeing the problems that I, and to some extent, Leevious, are experiencing.

Please let me know if a refund is possible.

Thanks!
-zaz

[zazelsodo]

Rogue,

Here is the midi file I promised. It has two measures of “groove” and then the fill that seems to be not working, then a few more measures of “groove”

I DID notice that the note durations during the fill are all either 0 or 8, so I tried to edit them to be between 75 and 128, like the other note durations in the rest of the midi file, but it didn’t help.

You should hear a noticeable difference in the quality of the hits for the snare and crashes in the “problem fill”

Thanks!
-zaz

[zazelsodo]

Rogue,
 
When I get home tonight, I will upload a midi file.  It won’t be for several hours however.
 
Thanks again!
 
     -zaz

[zazelsodo]

Rogue,
 
Thank you for your response.  I think you’re focusing too much on the DFH compared to the MetalHeads EZX comparison.  I was trying to use that as an illustration, and I apologize if I caused any confusion…so I’ll try to restate my concern a different way.
 
I load EZDrummer and load MetalHeads (DW Kit)…
If I use the groove browser and find a simple 4/4 groove that I like from the DFH Midi files that came with the EZX, and drag it into my sequencer, Metalheads will play it without a problem, and I like how it sounds.  The velocity on all of the midi notes are all between 96-114 and everything hits great. 

If I then browse to the SongWriters Fill pack, and find a fill I like and drag it to the sequence, with all of the midi notes having a velocity of between 96-114, the Snare sound will totally just DROP out of the snares that are in the fill, but will come back in full force when the “groove” from DFH MIDI comes back into play.
 
This isn’t a concern about one sound pack verse another…I test software for a living, and this appears to be a bug.  The Metalheads EZX appears to work differently between MIDI packs that are sold by Toontrack.  Midi from the DFH Midi collection works fine, but some of the fills from the songwriters fillpack lack any punch, even though their midi velocities are all the same between the DFH MIDI and the Fillpack MIDI
 
To sum it all up…midi grooves from certain midi packs don’t appear to work with the MetalHeads EZX.
 
I hope this makes more sense.
 
Thanks!  
     -zaz

[zazelsodo]

Rogue,
 
Thank you for the reply.  Let me try to clarify my problem.  When I say “Similar map” I mean that the midi note for “Kick L” in DFH is the same Midi Note that will trigger the “Kick L” sample in MetalHeads.  I’ve been sequencing drums and working with Midi for over a decade, so I understand the issue with converting midi instruments.  IE: Using the Nashville kit which may have a rim shot mapped to the midi note for “Kick L” (For EXAMPLE…I’m not in front of my studio PC, so I can’t actually check the mapping)
 
Obviously, Metalheads is a more advanced instrument, being that it is built on the shoulders of a decade of innovation.
 
So here is the problem.
 
-I open a new project in Sonar
-Insert a new virtual instrument (EZDrummer)
-Load Drumkit from Hell (Death Kit)
-Open the Groove Library
-Sample a groove from the Drumkit from Hell Midi Library
-Drag the groove into my sequencer
-select a fill from the Songwriters Fill Pack and Drag it into the sequencer
-etc, etc, etc…
-It sounds GREAT, punchy, all of the drums are hitting hard.
-Change the drum kit from DFH to MetalHeads (DW Kit)
-Verify that the Midi Note for “Kick L” “Tom 1” “Crash 1” etc…triggers the same drum in MetalHeads..(It does)
– Open the event list, and see that for the 4 measures I just “Sequenced” no midi note has a triggered velocity of less than 94 or more than 117. 
     (*) This, to me, appears to be an appropriate velocity to be able to hear all the drum hits
-Play the same sequence that previous was loud, punchy, and defined with DFH and it is thin and weak in MetalHeads. 
 
If you listen back to the sample I uploaded, this is the exact step by step I used to create that audio file.  I can’t understand why a “Snare” midi note with a velocity of 114 hits VERY hard in DFH but is barely audible in MetalHeads…the same problem occurs with Crash cymbals as well. 
 
Both kits are loaded into the mixer in their “default” settings.
 
“Audible” may be the wrong word…let me try it this way.  The snare sound in the first “Groove” portion of the MetalHeads audio is at a volume that is relative to the kick and hi hat.  In the second measure, where the fill starts, the snare drum and crash cymbals get noticably quieter in relation to the other drums, even though their midi note velocities are the same as they are in the DFH portion of the audio.  There is no depreciation of the volume or velocity in the DFH section.
 
I hope this clarifies.  I will try anything I can, SHORT of rewriting every drum part I have for my album.  The songs are done, I would like to use MetalHeads instead of DFH, and I am willing to do some editing, but editing of the midi files, velocity, etc…doesn’t appear to fix the problem.
 
Thanks again, and I hope I have clarified things.
     -zaz
 
 
 

[zazelsodo]

Drumtracker: http://www.toontrack.com/

I believe it’ll convert your live audio performance into a Midi file with Tempo information in it. You can then use it to convert the live performance to any other ToonTrack EZX, or add additional midi information.

[zazelsodo]

All,

Here is an MP3 that demonstrates my problem. The first section is using DFH EZX. Please note the fill that happens about 3 seconds into the clip. The second portion is using the DW kit from MetalHeads EZX. Please note the fill that happens around 11 seconds.

It’s the same midi used for both. There is no difference, all I did was switch kits in Pro Tools LE 8.3 and record them. Not the difference in the intensity of the fills, same midi, only changed the EZX. I can understand if I switched from DFH to Nashville, or something with a possible different Drum Map…but I would think these two kits have similar drum maps, and everything else lines up pretty well, except for fills.

Please let me know what you think I should be doing to fix this, as I want to use MetalHeads, but currently can’t.

Oh! One last thing…the midi file used was created new using Drag & Drop from EZDrummer…and I had the MetalHeads DW kit selected when I created the midi file…it translates fine over to DFH, but the fills from the other Midi Packs, don’t seem to work, as you’ll hear.

Thanks!
-zaz

PS: The MP3 file is in the zip file, since you can’t upload MP3’s

[zazelsodo]

I am having similar problems. I am using DFH for several things, and when I convert things over to MetalHeads, certain fills sound weak. Like the crash is dull, and the snares are really quiet. I’m using Sonar 8.0, and things sound great 95% of the time, but certain fills lose their power. The velocity on the crashes are at 110 on each one, and they’re barely audible. But right after the fill, the NEXT time the same crash is hit at 108, it dominates the left side of my mix.

Snare runs cause the same problem.

Is there a Drum Map for the new MetalHeads? I have the DFH Drum Map from Groove Monkey, does anyone know if one exists for MetalHeads yet?

Any help you guys could offer would be appreciated. I’ve tried editing the individual velocities, and no luck.

I can upload audio samples if you guys need them…but any assistance you may be able to offer would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
-zaz

[zazelsodo]

I use DFH almost exclusively, so I understand the frustration.  If you listen to Meshugah, etc…then the fills make sense  =D
 
One of the biggest “problems” are that the grooves don’t match the feel of the fill in a lot of cases…a good way to fix this it to open the drum track in the editor..and add the same kick/snare pattern to the first half of the fill.  IE, a 1 measure fill, you would edit the kick/snare pattern on the 1 and 2, leaving the 3 and 4 to the original fill.  This requires some understanding of the software that you’re using, but sometimes sliding a kick or snare a few “pennies” in either direction, help the feel of the fill.
 
I’m learning that the pre packaged grooves/fills are FANTASTIC jumping off points…but as already suggested, half timing fast fills and/or setting the appropriate lengths of each clip is a great place to start.
 
Another good trick if you’re doing anything fast or punky, is to double time standard beats, and then use standard time for fills…it give a great swaying momentum, leading into chorus’, etc…
 
Good luck!

[zazelsodo]

John,
 
Thanks for the template…this is basically how I had it set up…I will try your template later, and see if it works if I change to the DFH, but a few questions remain. 
 
1) I can’t hear anything from the other channels unless I record them.  Even arming the tracks and playing doesn’t produce any sound.  On your template..if I click the mouse on the snare, I hear a snare, and the snare track meter visably shows sound.  Not the case when I set things up exactle the same way with DFH 
 
2) Arming the “Kick” track and trying to record, produces an empty wave.  Track 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 all record, but the kick drum does NOT record to audio…so I can’t mute the Midi track because the kick then disappears from the mix.
 
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction…any additional help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Thanks!

[Author]

Replies