[Nsurround]

I have been doing something similar using Moises and then replacing the separate midi drum tracks with the Tracker feature in Superior Drummer 3 with varying results in Fender Studio One Pro. It actually seems very convoluted and believe it should be integrated into SD3 or SD4(?) directly. A non drummer songwriter does not want to spend hours figuring out what groove and fills to use for a project. That being said, it is great that one can customise the drum tracks in SD3 or other toontrack products. But toontracks SD still could use a AI groove finder etc.

[Nsurround]

The ‘bandmate’ feature in EZD3 is essentially <strong class=”Yjhzub” data-sfc-root=”c” data-sfc-cb=””>algorithms with some AI analysis. I assume it pares groves available with audio or midi analysis. It is really frustrating that Toontracks has not incorporated this type of feature in SD3 either as an update or upgrade to a new version (SD4) etc. . Tracker is a cool feature of SD3 but would be even better if something like ‘bandmate’ could interface with it in a superior drummer product. At the moment you have to have both SD3 and EZD3 to to do something like that.  Toontracks keep on selling and discounting their drum sample and groove paks but have not released a newer version of SD or EZD since May of 2022. Over 4 years ago.

[Nsurround]

Yes, I think that the actual user (musician) should have manual control over the AI tools. Both Suno and Moises are exploring that in their AI DAW development. Mostly this is done online now and not locally. Toontracks on the other hand is basically all ‘local’. All data sets/samples/grooves are purchased and stored locally on storage devices of the user. Unfortunately that distribution model is now becoming less and less adopted by companies of all kinds. I hate the subscription system model but that is probably where Toontracks may go if they move more into AI tools etc. Generally speaking AI data sets are huge, way more that the average user will have locally at their disposal. IMO this is part of the delima that Toontracks and other audio sample companies will need to deal with. The other thing is that humans including musicians will usually take the easiest path to get where they want to go. Like it or not AI is becoming one of those paths. That being said, hopefully Toontracks and others will keep the ‘musician’ in control of their endeavors.

[Nsurround]

AI is most definitely changing the music production landscape. Especially the demo and songwriting production. That is the category that Toontracks generally covers. AI companies such a Suno and Moises are now essentially producing online AI DAWs. These DAWs are not comprehensive yet and are still in the beginning stages of development. I did a song demo on Moises Studio with just a guitar track as the starting point. I was able to separately choose and add a drum and bass track based on AI analysing the guitar track. After several versions it came out better than I expected. I then exported each into my main DAW. I also exported the midi for both the drum and bass tracks. It certainty sounded good enough for a demo. However I went further and as the drum tracks were split out to separate audio tracks I used SD3’s tracker feature and could replace or add to the snare, kick, toms and cymbals with samples from toontrack libraries. The whole process was really fairly quick. If I had done just the drum track alone starting from SD3 only it would have been hours of messing around and probably would not be much better sounding. Toontracks has been really tight lipped about if or how they will address AI tool development in a product of theirs other than the current EZ3 which has the ‘bandmate’ feature. But IMO if they want to stay relevant, they will need to address this soon.

[Nsurround]

Yes, you are right and that was 4 years ago.

[Nsurround]

I agree with you. As far as I know there is very little to no way to obtain physical evidence as to what AI is trained on. So from a legal standpoint it would be difficult to prove outside of witness testimony etc. I was just trying to give a scenario about how Toontracks and others, who have large sample libraries, might proceed in the future. NAMM is just around the corner so maybe we will hear something then. But it seems the end is coming soon for companies selling physical sample libraries coupled with VSTs etc. Their AI training copyright clauses are almost useless. You are completely correct that AI companies have trampled on ‘ownership’ rights and such. The hard thing for me is that most people could care less and just want their easy ‘candy’.

[Nsurround]

BEST ANSWER

I assume you mean like a prompt type mixing/dynamics tool? At the moment Toontracks seem to be losing the AI situation in general. Instead they seem to be discounting some of their products like crazy (up to 70-80%). Not sure what that all means but if SD 4 ever comes out it will need serious integration with a AI tools in order to be competitive. The likes of SUNO and other generative AI music sites are diving headlong into the same territory that Toontracks covers but with substantial AI tools now. IMO those companies probably trained AI on products from Toontracks and other virtual instrument companies. Seems like it would be a losing battle using copyright infringement as the legal fight. How would one come up with the evidence? There is no identifier in the data that says what AI was trained on. Drum samples and grooves have been copied forever. Maybe Toontracks will be bought out by some generative AI company? These are just my opinions and have no inside information etc.

[Nsurround]

Hey, I would agree that producing really good drum tracks based on  song writing or composition can be tedious even using the current ‘bandmate’ feature.  The AI prompt idea I think could work in the editing process once you have a basic groove going that fits with the song style etc. I like the idea as long as the human input is in control of the process. This is a great tool for songwriters and such but I would not like it to turn into something like Suno or other similar apps that seem to be somewhat currently popular. Those apps seem more of a novelty item, at the moment, than a serious production approach to music. That being said, it is all changing for recorded music and where it goes is not clear at this time. My hope is that  live shows/tours will keep steering the interest in music creativity and such so that recorded music is still driven for the most part by skilled or dedicated human musicians and producers. using in part AI as a ‘tool’ and not a ‘crutch’.

1

Thanked by: WD123

[Nsurround]

“For an AI future, I imagine, instead buying  midi packs you would buy a style or a “drummer”/“bassist”/“keyboard player” add-on.”

Yeah, I think the ‘groove’ section could be done better and that the ‘style’ maybe the key. It seems to me that the ‘Bandmate’ feature in EZdrummer 3 is going in that direction. At least for songwriters who do not want to spend much time going thru a whole bunch of grooves via the current options. Seems to me that Superior Drummer 3 has the best sounding library of drum samples but it uses an interface of tweaking options that is somewhat cumbersome to mess with unless you are really into it. I think AI tools could improve that quite a bit and get you much faster to a satisfying end point. Since Toontracks has a infringement clause about using AI training on their products, I assume that the best defense is going on offense and creating the AI tools in their own eco system. Not sure that they can really stop others from AI training of their products unless they have some method of identification of samples and midi grooves etc. To me it would be extremely hard to do this at this point in AI development.

 

2

Thanked by: gearnerd and WD123

[Nsurround]

To: John Rammelt – Toontrack
Technical Advisor

I would agree with most of the commenters here that Bandmate should be in a product like SD3 . But because it was not a more recent release, understand why it is not. That being said, there have been very few updates to SD3 functionality anyway and marketing did label it “superior” right? They did not label it for producers only etc. etc. So the technical reasons you gave for the difference between SD3 and EZdrummer, while may have been true at the time, do not seem to be as valid now.  However there are probably technical or financial reasons that SD3 will not have the Bandmate functions based on how SD3 and EZ3 differ in how they were developed. In any case, I believe it would help if Toontracks gave a definitive answer to the question if SD3 will ever have the Bandmate function.

1

Thanked by: Gilles Forgues

[Author]

Replies