rgarber(update 3/22) PLEASE NOTE: This thread took part over a couple of days and in subsequent posts, if you read down to my last posts you’ll see I learned something about EZ Keys that I get it now. If you’re undecided about EZ Keys like I was, you might want to read my 3/22 post where it discusses the Split tool which is not discussed in any detail in the manual, that I could find. I get it now. 🙂
My copy of EZ Keys is running fine. No problem there. My dilemma is I don’t get the point of the package. It’s coming across to me more like a Loop splicing tool where I’m limited to mixing and matching pre-played piano splices with some ability to change chords where needed. And I can import midi’s and all, that’s pretty easy. But where does the song development part come in at? Since I bought EZ Keys I reckon I’m stuck with it but even at that, I just don’t see where for someone familiar with writing software, where this program even has a purpose.
I’ve read the manual and it’s pretty short. Nothing against that but am I missing something? I gather I just can’t type in chords at will, right? And worse, I can’t apply the midi patterns to my own set of chords if the chord changes don’t match where I would want my changes to take place unless I find a pattern that matches my own, right? I did import a midi with no problems but I couldn’t figure out how to merge their playing prowess with the chords I desired.
If this stuff can be done, then great, but I can’t see how to do it without butchering the pre-made stuff first and I just wonder how long does it take to do that especially with a complex chord change. I also didn’t see where I could set markers so I could know where I’m at in the song either.
Trust me, after shelling out the bucks for EZ Keys, I’m not in the mood for venting. What I can’t see is how to use the program in a serious situation. Possibly working with very small clips and building a new song in a DAW, maybe?? I’m worried that to get any use out of EZ Keys that it will mean lots of workarounds and shoot, I got this other program, Band In The Box – and to get what I want to do with it, I got to do workarounds with it. I had hoped the way I understood the video promoting EZ Keys that this software would be an awesome if not only a song development platform but also a song accompaniment package as well.
I’m just totally lost with this package in that I think it’s just a Loop-like tool where you work with pre-set recordings and mix and match. No offense to the Loopers, just trying to understand what I bought (verses what I thought I was getting).
Rich
JohnHi,
you’re right in that EZkeys is not a BiaB replacement. It has never been advertised as such.
Let me take two real-world examples of how EZkeys has been great for me as a song-writer.
1) having an idea of a song and being able to sit on the train to get the song structure with verse, pre-chorus, chorus and middle 8 finished before getting off the train.
This only by finding MIDI files among the stock ones, finding the right groove and style and then change the chords and color with the CoF to make it fit my song, being able to build and record the rest in the studio.
2) I had a great performance on one song with a great keyboard player. I had another song where I wished I had such a performance. I had the first song cut up into verse, chorus, etc and imported to EZkeys where I could use his performance and change chords and color to make it fit my song. The few places it didn’t quite work, I could easily fix in my DAW.
But don’t take my word for it, you can find users writing here on the Forum about their “success stories” with EZkeys.
BR,
John
John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
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Thanked by: r strgarberI don’t know, it’s still cutting and pasting somebody else’s work, I don’t really accept that as a serious song development vehicle unless it’s to be considered an entry level tool. My first impression is that it’s missing so much of the song development needs I would think any further use of it would impede song development rather than assist it. For me, the editing functions where I can start a chord progression and then effect the player accompaniment to the chord progress is a need – if only to get the accompaniment part of EZ Keys useful. Then a further addition of editing tools to apply chords to “where and whenever” in a measure (and make it less cumbersome) is also an immediate need. I accept that what I’m saying probably does sound like a BITB replacement, maybe because the only redeeming quality I find in EZ Keys is that I could have theoretically controlled the ‘style’ of any number of measures through the preset midis. But so much is lacking that the program comes across to me as more a gimmick than an attempt to put a serious product on the market. Maybe one day EZ Keys develops into a real song development platform but right now I see it being relegated to the shelf. I don’t mean to be a bummer, I’m quite bummed out on having made the purchase.
WhittenI don’t have EZkeys yet, but I’m guessing the idea is you find a sequence that sort of fits your needs, then quite quickly export that to a midi track in your DAW. Then the editing possibilities are pretty limitless. The EZkeys sequences are just midi after all.
rgarberWell as much as I appreciate your guess, having the program and guessing what it can do is so far two different outcomes. I guessed too, and bought it. After a few hours staring at it, I’m still puzzled what programmer looked at EZ Keys and yelled, “it’s finished!” It’s quite the disappointment because the potential is there, I can see that, but why would they go this far and then just stop? It’s begging for completeness. Buy it and see for yourself if you don’t say the same thing like I did, “where’s the rest of it?” But thanks for the guess, it’s the most anyone’s offered yet.
ScottInstead of buying it Chris, download the free demo and try it to see if it fits your needs.
http://www.toontrack.com/product/ezkeys-grand-piano/
Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
pdlstlWell, I agree it seems somewhat”unfinished” at this point but I’m still happy I purchased it. Even in it’s infant stage it will see use in my studio.
My experience with Toontrack products has been quite satisfactory and I know they will continue to work on EZKeys. When they do I feel confident we will see updates that will include additional features that are sorely needed.
Is this a great product now (ie: Superior)? No, but I know development will continue and it will become a powerful product.
Just my 2¢…
jerry JaborekORIGINAL: rgarber
Well as much as I appreciate your guess, having the program and guessing what it can do is so far two different outcomes. I guessed too, and bought it. After a few hours staring at it, I’m still puzzled what programmer looked at EZ Keys and yelled, “it’s finished!” It’s quite the disappointment because the potential is there, I can see that, but why would they go this far and then just stop? It’s begging for completeness. Buy it and see for yourself if you don’t say the same thing like I did, “where’s the rest of it?” But thanks for the guess, it’s the most anyone’s offered yet.
Sadly, I agree with this completely. I REALLY don’t want to beat up on Toontrack because so many of their offerings have been stellar, but the EZ Keys demo stunned me in it’s limited edit ability and lack of drag and drop content. One sweet patch could get this product right back on track, yet at it’s current price, I’m just not seeing value.
jerry JaborekORIGINAL: pdlstl
Well, I agree it seems somewhat”unfinished” at this point but I’m still happy I purchased it. Even in it’s infant stage it will see use in my studio.
My experience with Toontrack products has been quite satisfactory and I know they will continue to work on EZKeys. When they do I feel confident we will see updates that will include additional features that are sorely needed.
Is this a great product now (ie: Superior)? No, but I know development will continue and it will become a powerful product.
Just my 2¢…
I think the issue with this type of thinking is that we, the customers, are going to need to purchase upcoming expansions to complete what should have been implemented in the original product. With EZ Keys being sold here for $179, it seems too expensive for what it offers in it’s current state.
TomI have voiced similar complaints about EZKeys in a couple of other threads. It may not have been advertised as a BiaB replacement. But that is what it looked like to a BiaB user, so I skipped the demo stage and bought EZKeys directly based on my trust in Toontrack gained from other good products.
Nevertheless it could be a BiaB replacement for a single intrument and working inside your DAW as a vst. Something I have always been looking for. All you need is to have an ability to enter your desired chord sequence and have EZKeys adjust its variations to this when dragged down in the songtrack. But alas, Toontrack says this seemingly simple change is not so easy to implement… which I don’t understand since you can even change the chords in the variations to your liking manually.
When the above has been fixed, please give me a midi output so that I can use EZKeys for other instrument than the included piano directly without having paste into a DAW track first. With these two fixes it will be exactly what I wanted. Importing your own midi and expanding the library works just fine which should be pointed out as one of the good things.
Cygnus64I’ve been using it non-stop for a week and have found the possiblities to be wide open. For the record, I’m a seasoned pro musician: I say that because the product (I think) has several groups and levels that it could be used by and marketed to. I’m currently working on an album, and my album has literally gone in another direction in the past week, after going back and altering some of my previous work.
Caveat Emptor: I was not looking for the “EZ” aspect of the program so I really can’t address that. Piano is not my primary instrument. More importantly, I’m a classical musician for a living so the stylistic approach I have is markedly different from what is presented in the clips. I’m great at theory, chord structure, blah blah, but I don’t have the ability to play in the style, with pedals, “blue” notes, ghost notes, grace notes, proper voicings, on and on.
Some of the things I am doing:
1. I rarely use an 8 measure phrase. I’m cutting, pasting, using 2 of this and 6 of that. I’m taking 6 measures from rock and putting in one measure from gospel and one measure from jazz in. I’m mixing variations, changing octaves. I’m making music. I’m using that scissor tool like a chef at Benihana.
2. I’m doing a lot in my DAW. I drag it into Sonar and then edit. I do it with notation view: I add notes, delete notes, add quite a bit of real playing. Being able to see it in notation is helpful to me. I’ve even opened files in Sibelius. In the DAW, I’m adding tempo fluctuations, ritards, I’m changing note lengths. If I drag in something that’s “almost right” it will be 100% right in 5 minutes.
3. I’m adding a lot of flavor by experimenting. Drag a standard chord progression into EZ Keys, then try adding seconds (add 9), 7ths, 11ths. Take out the 3 or fifth.
4. I’m going ambient: I’m pulling up Massive, Kontakt, etc and using lots of sound sources. I’m using E Pianos, harpsichords, splits, layers.
5. I’ve owned EZ drummer for years so I’ve always worked this way: adding crashes, mixing and matching measures, making my own patterns etc.
There ya go. I gotta say: I’m get stunning results. As I said, I wasn’t seeking out the “EZ” aspects. I’ve never owned BIAB so I can’t compare and that wasn’t my interest in the product. I’ve been doing midi since, umm, they invented midi. 🙂 Therefore I realize that the real power here is combining the capabilities of EZ Keys with a DAW. That, and using some imagination: I’m going back to tracks I’ve already done and just seeing what happens when I drag a country-flavored progression into a new-agey song. While I may not be the target customer, there is enormous potential, as is, from the product. And it’s still relatively “EZ” even to do advanced editing in a DAW.
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Thanked by: Dave FalkrgarberAh, so you enjoy the power of DAW, so do I. But this, IMO, is about this:
“Songwriting made easy!
EZkeys is a revolutionary plugin and stand alone instrument that combines a world-class piano player, songwriting partner, arranger and a meticulously sampled grand piano – all in one package. Developed with Toontrack Music’s forward thinking approach to music composition, EZkeys delivers breathtakingly rich tonal qualities and allows the user unlimited creativity through its groundbreaking functionality.”
This is what I see and purchased EZ Keys for. The EZ reference you refer to is almost insulting. Nowhere did I or anybody else refer to difficulties in using the product let alone the lack of workaround possibility. Nor did I say anything about it being a BITB replacement. I’m simply lost where it contends to be the above and instead is something more akin to Loop machine than song development.
Song development is what? Loops? Isn’t that rather a limited definition of song development when the spectrum is so broad? To me it’s quizzical that I simply cannot type in the chords where I want, when I want and then select from the patterns what the piano will play like. That is what we do on a piano for goodness sake, is it not?
To me, if Toontrack wants to get into the Loop business, that’s fine. But say it! Don’t call it “song development.” Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-Toontrack. I have both EZ Drummer ( a couple of add-ons to it) and Superior Drummer.
Let me take this back to my original post. I wasn’t being a smart-alec when I wrote, “I don’t get it.” It’s not a commentary, I’m saying I really don’t get it. It’s like I’m missing something about this program because I don’t see song writing in it. I see Loop creation.
I do Big Band composition and arranging and half my fun is coming up with a realistic rendering of such with lots of samples. I and I’m sure the others here know all about the power of DAW. Shoot, if they could even just get EZ Keys to do the accompaniment part of what the advertising suggests and that I didn’t have to write my own piano parts, I’d be glad to own EZ Keys just for that.
But it’s not my song if a preset pattern dictates where my chords will go. What is so hard to understand about this? I’m not concerned about the price. It would at least be nice if somebody said these features will be taken care of. I can’t stand the arrogance of those who rear back and say this is the way it is, that’s how it’s gonna be and you either like it or leave it. Not saying anybody in this thread said that but I had this discussion with the retailer I bought it from and it got that ugly. To me, if you use the words ‘song writing’ then let the package live up to its claim. Make this truly a song writing tool and then I get it.
rgarberOkay, hold the phone… I think I just found something. Yep, I did. There is a way to add chords but it’s still through using a preset, but at least it can be done. I knew about zooming in/out of the measures but I wasn’t aware the split tool changed when you do. If you zoom in on a measure and split to the appropriate beat, the measure will split – and, the option to add a chord presents itself. Now that’s what I’m talking about. It’s not perfect but very doable now. A bit cumbersome because you still have to find a preset close to the chords you want, unless you just pick one and change all the chords. Heck, you can even import a plain midi as a template and I would imagine you can keep splitting til you get the chords YOU WANT (nudge nudge hint hint) added. Now I’m seeing I can get this. I do hope if anything comes of this that somebody at Toontrack makes this feature a bit easier to do though.
I’ll say it again, I’m starting to get it, and this might work out afterall.
rgarberOkay, I do get it now. Part of the problem is the only thing covered about this in the manual about Split is this:
“Basic editing tools are also offered via the menu on the left of the Song Track: the Edit tool, the Split tool, and the Chord Notation tool.”
That’s it.
The problem I had was I couldn’t add or remove chords in other parts of the same measure except where chords were already there, which left me with the impression that EZ Keys was some kind of Loop construction platform. In the zoomed out view the Split feature will only divide up by measure. But, if you zoom in closer with the magnifier icon, now you can split a measure into different chord lengths and EZ Keys will prompt you with, I believe, a suggested chord which you can change. Even better, if you make a mistake you can highlight a chord and remove it. It will leave a hole of sorts. However, to fill the hole the select nearby chord boundary and drag so the chord fills the hole. (Now that’s something I didn’t think to try, I wonder if you can change the chord length by just dragging the chord boundary).
Obviously it doesn’t take much to make me happy but in learning this removes my obstacle to understanding EZ Keys. While I don’t see EZ Keys as much of a song developing platform, yet, at least this gives me a much needed first step, a piano accompaniment construction tool. Being a sax player with very little piano experience, this can be very useful.
Hey, thanks y’all for being so civil. I thought this thread would degrade into nastiness (especially when I thought folks were getting the a different idea of my original post.) I’m going to see if I can edit my original post to point to this post here.
Johnrgarber,
have you explored the Circle of Fifths? Just need to ask, since it totally can changed whatever MIDI you dragged onto the Song Track.
John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
TomI am not sure what rgarber talks about. I still can’t find a way to “lock” chords so that the next variation dragged down into the songtrack will follow my chosen chords. I can change the chords, but as soon as I audition a new clip all my choisen chords are lost, and I have to start over again. So to me EZK is still mainly a loop arranger, more than a songwriting tool.
As for circle of fifth, I find it gets in the way. If you change one chord and want to change the next bar, then you have to close CoF first beause it gets in the way. It should have some arrows at left and right or a way to be moved with the mouse so that you can just drag CoF to the next bar. You can’t just click that bar with the mouse because circle of fifth covers it, so you have to close CoF first.
Repeating myself once again: It is so little that is needed to make EZK exactly what I wanted and what I thought I bought. I just don’t believe Toontack can’t have the required changes ready in the next update.
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