B SandyHi there,
As directed from this forum post, I’m raising a question a few people clearly have around transitions between the HH samples in SD3.
In SD3 there are, I believe, 8 sets of samples for different degrees of HH open-ness. The problem being experience is that there doesn’t seem to be any smooth transitioning (with cross-fading etc.) between them – so the sample jumps very audibly from one to the other. This is a problem if:
In either case, the sample jumps abruptly from one Openness level to another, which sounds extremely unnatural, to the extent (in my opinion) that you really can’t play anything on the hihat that invokes this kind of sound, which is a big shame for what is otherwise such a great instrument. It’s not a problem with HH controllers because I, and others, have tried editing the MIDI data so that the transition is in continuous steps of 1 CC value. It’s a bit like taking the slide away from a children’s playground and replacing it with some stairs. It would hurt.
This is an issue common to any sample library multi-level sampling (e.g. a piano) and/or with aftertouch/CC-controlled intensity changes (e.g. a clarinet) and there are clearly ways round it, because it’s not generally audible in the other libraries I use (e.g. Synthogy Ivory, Vienna Symphonic Library, etc.). Presumably, the solution people use is something like:
I this really not possible in SD3?
Mark KingI agree. The hi hat transition is the only part of SD3 that I struggle with for exactly the same reasons. Yes you can edit afterwards which is what I do but a smooth transition between the sounds would be really welcome
SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors
B SandyHow do you edit for this problem afterwards? I find that even if I create totally smooth MIDI CC curves (moving in CC value steps of 1) I still get the harsh transition problem – i.e. the issue is in how SD3 handles the MIDI data and does the transitions, rather than anything to do with e-drums etc.
JohnHi,
could you please post an SD3 Project here with MIDI on the Song Track that clearly demonstrates what you are having issues with?
Please ZIP the Project before attaching it to a post.
BR,
John
John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
DutchDoctorSorry to resurrect an old thread, trying to find some answers on this myself.
Attached .sd3 file from another thread with the exact same issue we’re all having.
And no, it isn’t the level envelope release time causing this. This happens regardless of that length of time.
It doesn’t change the crossfade (or lack thereof!) between the 8 sample layers.
I’m on a Roland TD50 and VH11 hats. I too have noticed this rather jarring hard cut between HH sample layers when moving the HH control pedal. Once your hihat CC pedal crosses one of those layer thesholds, the audio INSTANTLY snaps to the new sample layer with no audible crossfade whatsoever. Resulting in a really noticeable unnatural sound.
Even the basic built in Roland TD50 sounds don’t do this on the same setup. There is surely a way to fix this in the software end of things. An adjustable microfade between hi hat control layers would totally do the trick.
MintberryCrunchHere comes the answer to such hihat issues! 🙂
If you switch to my hihat engine (that I’ve developed to fix the issue) you will have the same behaviour as Roland module hihat without any nasty transitions from open to closed. And you will be able to play the “stepping” without annoying open artifacts because it won’t allow transitions triggered by sheer hihat controller data. 😉
1
Thanked by: DutchDoctor
keith andrewWhat is your hi hat engine?
B SandyHi John, I doesn’t look like I ever sent you that zip file but DutchDoctor has now.
Is there a chance of a fix for this issue? Is it something that only happen with Roland HHs?
Thanks.
daniel.bernhardssonHi,
I installed SD3 yesterday and I’m really impressed by the sound quality. After tweaking the audio buffer size and adjusting velocity curves I feel that most drums have a very natural feel and sound great. But the weak point is the hi-hat in my opinion and I must say that I expected more from this. I have the same problem as many others, the non-smooth jumps between different hi-hat samples sound unrealistic.
So let me first tell you about my workaround and then I have some proposals for future updates.
What I’ve done is simply to create a hybrid kit and use my Roland hi-hat together with SD3 samples for all other drums. I created a kit in TD-11 where I turned all pads off except for the hi-hat. In SD3, I turned the hi-hat level all the way down. That works with a dry kit but with roomy presets, the hi-hat will lack reverb. One option is to match with some reverb in the Roland module but instead I’ve setup a project in my DAW (Cubase) that adds the same reverb to both kits. I’ve turned off the ambience in SD3 and I send both SD3 and the audio input from Roland to the same FX channel in Cubase. It would be really nice to have an audio input in the SD3 mixer though and process both kits there to make it even more consistent with other effects such as compressors and distortion. However, I’m very happy with the results since I’m getting the realistic hi-hat that I’m used to playing together with all the nice new samples of the other drums!
I think that some simple changes regarding how and when the different hi-hat samples are played could make a big difference. Adding some crossfading between the samples as suggested by others could be an improvement but I’m not sure that will go all the way. Since the tails of samples with different openness sound so different in many cases, with different resonant frequencies, I think it is difficult to fade between them in a realistic way. When I listen to my TD-11 hi-hat, it doesn’t sound like it is fading between different levels of openness. If I strike the hi-hat fully opened and then press the pedal slowly to the next position, the same open sample rings out anyway. I have to press the pedal below a threshold to close it. No matter the pedal position when I’m striking the hi-hat, that sample will ring out fully unless I close the hi-hat to a certain degree. This is not completely realistic, but I’ve gotten used to it and in my opinion, that sound better than jumping between different levels of openness after the hit.
Another workaround that I’ve been thinking about is to disable some articulations and reuse one open hi-hat sample for several open positions. Then you would need to adjust the envelope curves for them individually to let the more opened positions have longer sustain. Perhaps it would sound better to jump between the different articulations if they are based on the same sample. I’m not sure if this is possible to set up though.
To tweak it further, if the hi-hat is being hit hard in the closed position and then quickly opens, in that case I would like to have a crossfade to the open hi-hat sample and get some of that open sound but not at all as loud as it currently is. A large part of the energy is lost before the hi-hat is opened so that sound will be quite weak on a real hi-hat. And maybe a reduction in volume together with a crossfade when the jump between samples occur could also be a solution to try out.
The bottom line is that it would be great to have a setting to turn off the transition between different hi-hat samples based on pedal movement after the hit and let all samples ring out instead. Unless you close the pedal below a certain threshold of course.
Best regards,
Daniel
gearnerdThe hit transitions are even worse on the older SDX’s. For playing e-drums it would be extremely helpful if a better transition would be achieved through sound processing like envelopes and transient design and such. This would also enable users to use cymbal chokes for instance.
MintberryCrunchWhen I listen to my TD-11 hi-hat, it doesn’t sound like it is fading between different levels of openness. If I strike the hi-hat fully opened and then press the pedal slowly to the next position, the same open sample rings out anyway. I have to press the pedal below a threshold to close it. No matter the pedal position when I’m striking the hi-hat, that sample will ring out fully unless I close the hi-hat to a certain degree. This is not completely realistic, but I’ve gotten used to it and in my opinion, that sound better than jumping between different levels of openness after the hit.
There is a fix that will eliminate the transition artifacts and 1:1 features the behaviour of the module hihat. You will also be able to do fast stepping without any annoying ringing artifacts (“open pedal” sounds) and still won’t lose the ability of playing hihat splashes.
Check the FB group “The Software Drumming Forum – tips & tricks + discussing drum samplers” for further info.
MintberryCrunchHere is a vid dedicated to the issue and the fix (it’s featuring EZDrummer2 but SD2/3 hihat engine is basically the same regarding the issue).
daniel.bernhardssonNice! I wrote a simple VST of my own to fix this. Shouldn’t be necessary though. I hope there will be an update to the midi engine soon, also to be able to use the standalone.
BenebriusCheers mate!
I followed your method and made a hybrid kit with my TD17.
Made a new kit in the module, turned down all pads except the hi-hat.
In SD3 I turned off the hi-hat & all associated bleeds etc. Now my kit is triggered by SD3 except for the hihat which is from the module. Hihat works perfectly now. This will do until Toontrack come up with a fix… if ever 😉
Much appreciated 🙂
keith andrewThat’s great but seriously, how are we even talking about this and how has Toontrack not dealt with it?
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