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[sonicviz]

Did you drag a complete mix or a single instrument?

Toontracks bandmate audio analysis works best on single instruments, as it can pull the harmonic and melodic information plus transients better in oder to find suitable matches.
Pick the instrument that you would best like the keys to “play with”. While you can do complete mixes, it’s a lot harder for it to analyse. There is advanced AI/ML that can do reasonable music separation from mixes now, but it’s pretty intensive and not in Toontrack. It’s better to feed it the actual stems anyway, if you have them.

Reading the manual is also a worthwhile exercise. I just printed it and went all the way through it, learned the differences between the EZKeys2 UI and EZBass/EZdrummer…worth the time.

• This post was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

I think the topic of EQ could also use a focused tutorial, as outlined in this thread: https://www.toontrack.com/forums/topic/ezkeys-2-bad-sound/page/3/#post-3099139

[sonicviz]

Great testing and result.

>>I spent 4 hours tinkering and came up with a sound equal to or better than omnisphere. It’s fantastic.

I know we all like to hold our mixmaster secret sauce cards close to our chest somtimes, but I’d be interested technically knowing what you did to get this, if you’re willing to share. Always interested in learning.

I can understand if not though!

>>Toontrack

@moderators Given that this is a common enough Piano sampler issue, and it’s fingernails on a blackboard to some people, I really think it would be to Toontrack’s benefit if they wrote one of their great tutorials explaing this phenomenon, with some examples demonstrating how they get generated and also some example EQ solutions for people to follow. Backed up by video maybe, but not just a video, pita when trying technical settings. It can only be a win all round.

Cross posted to https://www.toontrack.com/forums/topic/tutorial-for-me-and-many-others-like-me/#post-3099142

• The post has been modified 5 times, last modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

You probably want to start from the rhythm section first, rather than harmony.

Use Bass/drums to construct a heavy rhythm section track, then match some keyboard parts to that.

EZDrummer/EZBass have plenty of midi packs for that.
Find some keyboard parts that fit the rhythm (change tempo or whatever, experiment).

Adapt them to heavy genre style chord progressions like the following to get a start:

11 Heavy Metal Chord Progressions

https://www.guitarchalk.com/reusable-hard-rock-chord-progressions-guitar-lessons/

 

Lay some guitar on top, some screaming, you’re good to go.

2

Thanked by: Robert Garcia and Neb

[sonicviz]

I did some more playing around. It’s actually a zone where the non-linear interaction between notes and overtones generates all sorts of interesting results.
Not “hearing them” is also not a matter of old age and/or hearing loss because these frequencies are below what those age/music related hearing loss frequencies typcially are (ie: 3khz and up)

It’s more a matter of people experience it in different ways, and some people seem especially sensitive to them.
Psychoacoustics is a real field of study => https://www.larecordingschool.com/psychoacoustics-the-psychology-of-sound

The zone seems to be from ~850hz up to ~1350hz.
An easy way to highlight twitchy frequencies in this band is to create a tight notch filter and whack the gain right up, then sweep across the zone. You’ll know it when you find it.
eg: in Key of C 883hz, 1048hz, 1300hz all produce varying degrees of frisky frequencies. Neutron is useful because you can auto step to note frequencies as well, making it easier to test them.

If these frequencies are overly annoying to you use some EQ to dial them down, but not to the point of destroying the overall tone of the patch.
You can use multiple notch filters, eg: @ 883hz, 1048hz, 1300hz -8db q to taste and static or dynamic filtering, or even just a single EQ to pull that band down a touch to tame it.
Would depend on the key etc as well, and patch. Raw sample multi-outs use different mikes, so you can also play with it there.

Other instruments, samples or synth, do have similar issues. That’s also why we have EQ, so you can adjust to taste.

ps: “ringing” piano tones is a common complaint, with multiple causes.
There’s some interesting discussion in the links below, especially on piano construction and the nature of tone generation on them.
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2716148/ringing-sound.html
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/annoying-ringing-sound-in-classical-music-piano-recordings.904170/page-2
https://gearspace.com/board/all-things-technical/341373-close-mic-placement-piano-ringing-sounds.html
https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/108242/upright-piano-high-pitched-chime-like-ringing-noise
https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/9508/why-do-f6-and-higher-notes-ring-more-than-f6-and-lower-notes
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/getting-rid-of-ringing-on-a-solo-piano-track.32720/

• The post has been modified 2 times, last modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

Sorry about the double post. I submitted the first one and it disappeared immediately so I thought the system had deleted it, and now it’s back.

Had to try to remember what I wrote just a minute before, which is kind of hard because I’m old, deaf, and dumb – but I tried!

Have fun making music with EZKeys 2 kids, it’s great to finally have a reboot isn’t it?

• This post was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

nawai wrote:

Let me know if you’ve figured it out because when I tried to EQ it out (in Ez Keys 1) it’s really apparent around that 1000 Khz range but even bringing that down doesn’t seem to get rid of it.

Multi piano VSTi test.
Can’t test against https://soundcloud.com/justforyou-717762266/resonance as it’s now deleted.

Upshot: Slight “ringing” frequency at ~1300Hz ~E6 on all piano VSTi’s EZKeys 2 Ballad 1, The Giant Modern Studio, Pigments Pure Piano.

I didn’t test for different keys to see if the frequency is relative to what’s being played and hence shifts but still detectable as “ringing” overtone. Should be if it’s a consistent issue.

I also didn’t hear any higher frequency phasing issues, or see any high amplitude frequency content in the spectrum analysis possibly causing that.

Maybe some people are just more sensitive to this frequency, but it seems to be common enough across piano VST’s both sampled, synth, and layered.
Doesn’t bother me on or off.
I use EZKeys for both sound and functions, it’s fantastic at both. Back to playing now!

Piano VSTi audio analysis

• The post has been modified 4 times, last modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

nawai wrote:

Let me know if you’ve figured it out because when I tried to EQ it out (in Ez Keys 1) it’s really apparent around that 1000 Khz range but even bringing that down doesn’t seem to get rid of it.

While I was going through the EZKeys2 manual and checking out the new features (not too hard if you have EZBass/EZDrummer) I did a little sound testing on this issue as well.

I’m up for a mixmaster eq challenge, as I can always learn something.

Test setup:

Ableton Live

3 Piano instrument tracks

• EZKeys2 with EZkeys2 Session Grand Ballad 1 preset
• Kontakt 7 with NI The Giant and patch Modern Studio
• Arturia Pigments with patch Piano – Pure Piano

All three were fed into an analysis track with Neutron 3 for filtering and Insight 2 for spectral analysis.

What I found is there is a kind of “ringing” overtone at ~1300hz ~E6 that corresponds roughly to the sound and position of the ringing in the sample test posted by Nawal https://soundcloud.com/justforyou-717762266/resonance (now removed, so I can’t run a comparison test to confirm this is the frequency problem area)

By setting an aggressive notch filter, static or dynamic, in Neutron you can dial this in and out, as well as visualize it in Insight 2.

Thing is, this “ringing” overtone is present in all three instruments, to varying degrees.

You can hear it if you listen for it, you can dial it in or out. So it’s not an EZKeys2 issue, if this is in fact the frequency that is the one being talked about.

Piano VSTi audio analysis

Maybe some people are just more sensitive to this frequency, don’t know.
As to the claim it doesn’t exist in other libraries, don’t know.

But what I replicated above meshes with Nawal initial quote above and from what I remember hearing in the now deleted test sample.

Have at it yourselves. Not an issue for me, I can live with or without it, no big deal.
EZKeys2 sound modules are all great, and I use it both for the functionality and the sounds.

• The post has been modified 3 times, last modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

I’m just about to dive into some testing so will keep this in mind.

That said, it wouldn’t surprise me if the UI is a little more performance intensive, as it’s obviously more complex, even though it’s now common across the product line.

Not sure if it’s GPU accelerated like some other newer plugins are.

What DAW are you using?

Reply To: Ezkeys v2 … two questions version: 2.0.0
Operating system: Windows 11

• This post was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

You still don’t get it.

You just seem all upset because I didn’t kowtow & genuflect to your example with a “OMG UR RIGHT IZ CATASTOPHE MUST BE RERECORDED”.

Let me repeat.

It’s not about me being right or wrong.

Objective sound engineering evidence of a real issue stands above subjective impressions based on personal physiology, tolerance, and sound timbre preferences.

That doesn’t mean recording a snippet and snarkily saying “if you can’t hear it you must be old and deaf hnnur hnuur”.

Classy stuff there…very classy.

Try some DSP and analysis instead to prove your point. If you can’t do that, that’s a problem on your end.

• The post has been modified 3 times, last modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

Ok boomer.

>>I doing was just attempting to help OP express what they were talking about and you seem to just want to be the one who’s “right”.

That’s disingenuous to the max.
Multiple times I’ve stated the approach to resolving this is via a sound engineering process to isolate and “debug” the perceived issue.

That’s how you get companies to listen, not screaming “THIS SOUND IS ISHT A CATASTROPHE IT MUST BE RERECORDED” without providing any evidence beyond your subjective internet opinion.

You’re pretty much on the same level as the OP.

 

• This post was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

nawai wrote:

Alright, if you want to go with, “It’s a feature, not a bug” and “I hear it as a characteristic of the sound design.” then we’re just at an impasse and there’s really no point in continuing the conversation. You seem to have just wanted to be passive aggressive about everything for really no reason.

Don’t twist words.

What I actually said was “The fact you mention you’ve heard it in EZKeys 1 makes me think it’s more a TT “feature” than a bug.”

Accuse me of being passive aggressive while you twist words and act like the victim?

You and the OP make the perfect couple. The Hyperbole Twins. Start a band.

Bye!

• The post has been modified 2 times, last modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

nawai wrote:

https://soundcloud.com/justforyou-717762266/resonance There you go mate, if you can’t hear it, you’ve probably just got some high register hearing loss because that shit is ear piercing, sure it’s sitting it the back, but it’s there. Can’t believe I’m taking the time to make a point when all I was curious about was a solution, not about how you might have hearing loss.

I can hear the occasional “ringing” at high frequency in particular spots (it’s not constant), and it’s not ear piercing.

I also hear it very spatially localised in my right rear quadrant, if you were looking down on the head vertically.

I’ve done a lot of spatial audio R&D, so I’m quite focused on where sounds are coming from in addition to tone/timbre.

And yes, I’m older and high frequency attenuation is a fact there.

But I can hear it, but it’s not a big deal. I hear it as a characteristic of the sound design.

The fact you mention you’ve heard it in EZKeys 1 makes me think it’s more a TT “feature” than a bug.

Questions: Is it in every patch, in every instrument? In every situation.

You should also be able to isolate, or at least to some degree isolate, where it is in the spectrum with some of the tools available.

Also, if it was as ” shit is ear piercing” for EZKeys1 and the new EZKeys 2 than many many more people would be up in arms about it.

Instead, I see many many people saying “it’s great”. I don’t see “catastrophic” apart from this hyperbolic thread.

Maybe it’s because we’re all deaf, and you have perfect hearing.
Good for you! or maybe not, pitch perfect hearing can also be a pita I hear.

I’m quite serious, btw, in taking an engineering debugging approach to this.

If you really want to convince TT there is an issue, like any bug report you need to provide replicable use cases that really demonstrate the issue, and can be proven to be a real issue and not just a sound design feature.
Bugs don’t get fixed by users yelling “Your sound is isht” and leaving it at that.

I’ve only just started testing EZKeys2 myself, so will keep an ear out for this while I do my own tests and see what I find.

• The post has been modified 7 times, last modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

[sonicviz]

Marcin wrote:

What holds you here? Seriously, you’re blind (you can’t read and understand others), you’re deaf (you can’t hear the issue), but chose to flood this topic with your repetitive demands. Please go away and don’t come back. I’m not here to satisfy you, you know? You get it yet? Please respect it and just stop yourself. Show you have some leftovers of self control.

What’s your problem? You make loud objectional assertions that the “sound is bad”, it’s a “catastrophe”, and then demand they rerecord the whole thing based on your subjective opnion? And then you get all high and mighty when someone simply asks for some objective evidence that there’s something wrong with it?

It’s not me who has the problem here.

I’m an engineer, sound and code. It’s purely a techncial challenge. If there’s an actual issue, demonstrate it.

Problem solved, I’ll be convinced.

As it is, playing multiple notes on all the instruments including EZKeys 1 sound piano modules I hear more or less the same sound structure, it is what it is.

It just seems to me it’s more an issue of personal sound design taste here, but I’m happy to be convinced it’s a real issue if you can provide objective evidence.

Pretty simple.

[sonicviz]

Marcin wrote:

Oh you think we’re scientists here. Wrong webpage mate. Go away because you’re really not helping and your inability to see it is worse than your approach of the problem I came here with.

You’re the one making out your ears are special. All good musicans are sound engineers, and know their tools in addition to their ears.
All I’m asking is for some simple objective sound engineering evidence to back up your hyperbole.

 

You’ve pretty much admitted multiple times you seem to hate TT sound design anyway, so maybe that’s really what the issue is?

• This post was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by sonicviz.

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