michaelfjacob
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michaelfjacobInteresting. If you don’t mind, one more question about your workflow. If I create a track using the audio tracker, I get a result similar to the one you described. I could be mistaken, but I thought the decay was coming from the original audio and not the midi note. Perhaps EZBass is somehow adjusting the midi volume by tracking the audio volume? Conversely, if I create a new note directly from the grid editor without an audio tracker file, it does not decay the same way. Both of these are running through the same track in different measures in my DAW so they have identical compression, yet they behave differently from each other. Do you create your tracks directly in the grid editor or do you use the audio tracker? Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated!
michaelfjacobIf they decay for you please let us know how you got it to do so. Myself and others experience EZBass behaving like a synth bass. The notes sustain at the same volume until the end of the midi event at which time they abruptly stop. A lot of the articulations mimic real life and are pretty good, but not this one, at least for us. Any tips you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
michaelfjacobHi Nicholas. I downloaded your a-minor.mid file and it loaded into my EZKeys correctly. At first I wasn’t able to recreate the issue with the key signature set to either C major or A minor, which is exactly what I expected. Upon further experimentation I found that EZKeys, for some reason that I can’t comprehend, thinks your midi file is in F#m/A. This is why it is transposing the chords to Cm. Make sure the option to transpose the midi file to the project key signature is turned off. When you do that you will get the chords you are expecting.
michaelfjacobHi Nicholas. Seeing C major as the key selected in the tool isn’t surprising since it is the relative major to Am. Both scales contain the same notes, but are based on a different mode (Ionian and Aeolian). I’m nut sure why you would expect to see a Cm chord when working in Am. A Cm chord would have Eb in the 3rd which would be an accidental. Not that you can’t do that, but the software wouldn’t suggest that simply because it is in a different key. If you really want a Cm just pop up the chord selector and choose it. The chord selector looks like a circle of fifths when it pops up. One other note (no pun intended). This tool wasn’t intended to teach music theory. It is more of a music creation tool. If this answer doesn’t make sense you may need to learn a little more music theory before continuing your work in EZKeys.
michaelfjacobHey Rick. The short answer in my humble opinion is “no”.
The long answer is: Considering the fact that this issue was reported over 5 years ago, the root case as been identified as an error in the key definition within the midi files, there have been no updates to the software or midi packs to address this issue and potential workarounds have been published in this topic; I personally think this has a very low priority for the engineering team and I don’t think it will ever be fixed. We will likely be condemned to deal with workarounds, but I do want to express my appreciation to everyone who has tried to help by posting them. You and your posts have been very helpful!
That being said, even though I was the one who initially reported this issue, this will be the last time I post here. This conversation has gone down multiple rabbit holes. Some of them are about defining and recreating the issue, some on workarounds and others debating general music theory attempting to say this isn’t even a bug at all. Obviously some of those were more helpful than others. For all the reasons above I think this issue will never be fixed and continuing the conversation is pointless, so I’m going to bail out.
Thanks everyone for great conversation and your support us in trying to get this thing fixed. I hope you have better success than I did, but I’m done with it. Please don’t be offended when you don’t see any more responses from me.
michaelfjacobKey signatures don’t presuppose tonal centers. They contain 7 tonal centers within them. Tonal centres are defined by the circle of fifths. Key signatures define where they play in.
jord
I was following you when you said key signatures don’t presuppose tonal centers and they contain 7 tonal centers. I lost you when you said tonal centers are defined by the circle of fifths. I’m hoping you can help me understand that with this simple example. We all know that the circle of fifths relate all 12 chromatic tones to key signatures, both the major and the relative minor in sequential fifths. If I am playing a chord progression of G#m F#m EM7 C#m, I am obviously basing this on G# Phrygian, so based on the mode, I know the tonal center is G#. If I were to write this out in standard notation the key signature would be E (or we can also call it C# minor since the chords are predominantly minor). So far so good on the circle of fifths and the notational key signature. No issues either when using the underlying mode to identify the tonal center. We also agree that key signatures don’t presuppose a tonal center, so how do I use the circle of fifths to determine G# is the tonal center for this progression?
michaelfjacobI’ll add…
Some of this may be expectations for things that are not how EZkeys works. For example, this:
“For example, I want to write in the key of Em (the relative minor of G Major). Em should be the tonic/root. I set the key to Em and drag in Midi from the Library, and all the progressions are in the key of G. Thus, a I-IV-V in Em should be Em-Am-B Major. But I get the chord progressions relative to the G Major scale: G-C-D. The Em is being treated like the vi chord in the key of G, not the I chord (tonic). G is being treated like the root/tonic chord.”
As I stated earlier, if you just drag MIDI from the EZkeys MIDI browser, it will not make a Major chord play minor just because you set the Key Signature to E minor. The MIDI is still unaltered. In your example, the I chord is still the I chord. It doesn’t automatically change to E minor.
Now, that is a basic workflow thing.
Let me explain how I use EZkeys.
I’m a guitar player. I create chord progression on my guitar. I develop them on guitar. When I find something good enough to be a song, I’ll go to EZkeys and go to the Song Track. I’ll click the Add Chord button and manually lay out my song and chord progression. I’ll set the Key to match what I’m doing and my chord progression. I know the feel and groove of the key part I want so now I’ll try using the EZkeys browser. I’ll select, say, the verse chords…click the ‘Use Browser MIDI’ button and start auditioning the MIDI. DOING THIS METHOD WILL MAKE THE EZKEYS BROWSER MIDI FOLLOW MY CHORD PRGRESSION NO MATTER WHAT THE ORIGINAL MIDI WAS. So, if the original MIDI was Major and my chords are minor totality, the EZkeys engine will try to make that happen. It has varying amounts of success. Sometimes is great. Sometimes, because of the way the original MIDI was, it doesn’t work. Then I try something else.
The above is different from the way you are doing it. Selecting your key (Eminor) and the dragging the Browser MIDI to the Song Track. You need to manually add your chords in…click the Use Browser MIDI…and then click through the MIDI.
You may know all of this already but maybe not and it’s a MAJOR (yes, pun intended) workflow application that in my opinion, sets EZkeys apart.
Hey Scott. THAT is best suggestion I’ve heard yet. Agreed, it isn’t always perfect, but I was just tinkering with this workflow and it is a bit easier to use than splitting clips and working the chord wheel in some cases. Thanks for posting this.
michaelfjacobAh Ha! Therein lies break. Doesn’t it always boil down to the words we use and their interpretation? Yes, I agree completely that there is nothing in standard notation that would indicate a mode, other than that which is implied by the actual melody and chord arrangement. Yes, on the staff, my example would appear to be in F, with a singular Bb in the key signature if that is the only thing you’re looking at. The chords and melody would identify the tonal center on G, so modally it is G Dorian. All of the people I have studied under use the mode name in this context synonymously with the key of a composition. Of course, that is very different from a key “signature” as represented in staff notation, which is modally agnostic. I guess my brain didn’t go there since the conversation was in the context of how this software handles keys and their impact on chord progressions in the midi files for a composition, not how a composition would be represented in staff notation, so thank you for clarifying that subtle yet critical difference.
michaelfjacobJord, I’m not trying to impress anyone and I do apologize if I came across that way. I was just trying to establish a foundation for the information I was offering. It comes from some of the most reliable sources in the business, not some mumbo jumbo I picked up on YouTube. Nothing more. I see so much misinformation on the internet that confuses new music students that I try to help them understand how the theory really works and how to apply it in a practical manner. I’m not implying that you are new to music. Just making a general statement, so no offense intended.
Having drunk the Pro Tools Kool Aid I can’t speak to what Logic does, but regardless of the DAW, if I am looking at a G C D progression in G major within EZ Keys, change the key to Em and the chords stay the same, I have an issue with that. It is telling me that I’m in a minor key and the progression doesn’t even contain a minor chord. More specifically it is saying that I’m in Em even though the Em chord is completely absent from the entire progression.
If you’re ok with that, I’ll certainly respect your right to see it that way. Personally, I won’t say that is ok, nor would I teach that to a student. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
michaelfjacobBilly86, you hit the nail on the head and I agree 100%. The way I use the key selector is to simply select the major scale that is Ionian relative to the key that my composition is in. If I understand him correctly, I believe that is the point Jord is trying to make. The notes contained in both scales are all the same. The chord progression that you program will define the modal property regardless of what the key selector tool says. In the end this results in a midi that has all of the scale tones that are diatonically correct for my composition. I recently finished up a piece in G Dorian. I set the EZ keys to F major. Wrong from a theory perspective, but what else could I do? EZ Keys doesn’t offer me Dorian, so the next best thing is F major since the “palette” of notes is identical. I get a final result that sounds the way I intended it to and the listener isn’t going to know that my software thinks I’m in F. Kinda irritating, but it works. Cheers!
michaelfjacobI certainly respect your right to see it differently, but I will say that over the years I have been very fortunate. I have had opportunities to discuss and study this topic with a few men who are way more experienced than myself, including the likes of Bruce Bouillet, Paul Gilbert, Joe Satriani, Doug Doppler and Andy Timmons. This is what they taught me.
Enharmonic equivalents are identical notes differentiated only by name based on key. You can’t tell the difference between an F# and Gb by ear because they are the same pitch. You can only differentiate them by name based on the key/scale that contains them. The G and Em scales do contain the same diatonic notes, but they have completely different tonal characteristics that you can differentiate by ear.
I would agree that Bm C Am D7 G is B Phrygian, but to say that you can also call it A Dorian (or any of the other modes stemming from G major) because they are merely enharmonic representations would be in error because those modes have distinctly different tonal characteristics driven by the tonal center. To say otherwise would result in the whole concept of modes being moot. I do appreciate the discussion though!
michaelfjacobBilly86, I’m not quite clear on why you are expecting a B major chord in the key of E minor. The major 3rd would be D# which would be an accidental in the key of Em, but your larger point is well taken.
The names E Aeolian and E minor are frequently used interchangeably, but since EZ Keys uses E minor and doesn’t provide options to select the other modes, let’s stick with that. The notes contained in the G major and E minor scales are identical, but G major has the tonal center on G and E minor has its tonal center on E. That is modes 101, right? Therefore, I think it is reasonable to expect EZ keys to translate G C D to Em Am Bm when using the key selector to switch keys from G to Em. Since EZ Keys doesn’t do that, I don’t see what practical purpose this feature serves for a user other than documenting one’s intention to use a minor key vs a major key, but that could be the subject of a completely different thread. Let me stay on point for this one.
I suspect that EZ Keys isn’t concerned with tonal center, but only the notes present in the scales, regardless of their degree within that scale. Not being a programmer for the product I can’t say that is a fact. I can only assume that based on the product’s behavior, but to Scott’s point, after changing the key from G to Em, you would also need to use the chord wheel to change the G chord to an Em chord and so on for the rest of the chords in the progression. It is a little more time consuming, but it will work and result in the prgression you are looking for.
michaelfjacobYeah, unfortunately, it is right. All of us here on this thread have invested a good amount of time testing and documenting steps to reproduce the issue. The response from support that Scott posted confirms the root cause is an incorrect key assigned in the midi. That response also said there was no ETA on a fix but the transpose function from the context menu can be used as a workaround.
michaelfjacobHey Ed, you might be on to something there. I just tried out some of my other midi packs. Americana is working as expected, but Piano Pop has the issue. I also tried the Blues pack and noticed the 12 bar blues was correct but one of the jazzy blues progressions was wrong. Perhaps the system is working correctly for the most basic progressions, but gets confused with more complex chord structures. If that’s right, that would be a more complicated problem to fix because it would be in the chord analysis algorithms, not just simple metadata in the midi packs.
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