[Mark Perrett]

Thx Ollie. This all makes complete sense, especially the lack of hits (only 2!) per gradient layer in EZd libraries. Now I understand a) why those fast snare fills sound more convincing using the Avatar library than EZd libraries, and b) why the SD Avatar library is ~20GB and a typical EZd kit is only 1-2GB. And thx for your MHE explanation. Now I understand how MHE works, it makes perfect sense too and tallies with my user experience.

The problem with only 2 hits per gradient layer and switching Semi Seq on is that it makes the drums unmixable without seriously mashing them in some way. This means that basically most of the time in EZx I’m using just one snare sample, because I personally prefer a constant-sounding snare rather than one that goes “tick tock”. This seems a shame, given all the effort that was put into recording so many samples and how many of them there are: I still mainly use just one!!

Given the choice, I’d prefer 20 different snare hits in the 90-115 velocity layer and none below 90, rather than a load of quiet and super-loud hits which I never use (including the hard hits V=127, which often sound like the drummer is really whaling it… …and to me is too full on). But other users may have a different opinion and I understand that.

I’m a big fan of the Americana kit snare sound and its components (based on just one sample!). The snare top has a nice thump to it, the snare bottom has a nice crack, the overheads have a nice ambient sound (and the snare is pretty closely centred in the overheads – unlike some other kits, SD Avatar for example!!) and the ambience is great too. They all ring out realistically and don’t seem to be “choked” at the end (which sometimes seems to happen, presumably for data-per-sample-limitiation reasons). It’s just a shame there’s only 2 samples per gradient velocity layer…

So here’s my question. Actually 2 questions:

1. Which SD expansion has “natural” sounding drums which respond to moderate processing i.e. which sounds most like Americana? Basically I”m looking for Americana with lots of hits per gradient layer.

2. Which are the EZx2 expansions? How do I know whether an EZx is an EZx1 with limited gradient hit samples, are an EZx2 with more?

Thx very much and rgds,
Mark

[Mark Perrett]

Hi Ollie,

Just to close the loop on this.

At the outset, I wanted to say IMHO Toontrack/EZd/SD are GREAT products. I’m doing various projects currently with my similarly middle-aged muso friends, including one live project where I sampled-replaced the entire kit of our drummer with the SD Avatar sample library. He has a double bass drum set up, 5 toms, 2 rides, umpteen crashes etc. etc…. ..and a cowbell. He’s a very busy player (needs to be with this kit!) and I sample-replaced his entire drum part based on 4 channels of original drums (kick, snare, 2x overheads). No one noticed, including the keyboard player who claims to be able to spot sampled drums at 1,000 yards distance… In fact, every one said how great the drums sounded! So well done Toontrack!

Anyway, back to MHE.

As you suggested, I tried this using MHE maxed out and an 8 voice limit on the snare (default setting) and using the Americana kit which I happened to have loaded up in Superior Drummer. I used a straight backbeat snare at 144bpm and constant midi velocity of 115. As far as I could tell – based on listening and inspection of the waveform – this made no difference at all (with all humanisation ON except for my bugbear Semi Seq).

I then tried it again on a fast semi-quaver snare fill. This was made up of a series of midi snare hits of different velocities. Otherwise, same as above (Americana kit in SD, 8 voice limit, all humanisation ON except for Semi Seq). This time there was a small difference. On close inspection, it turned out that 2 of the midi hits were adjacent and the same 104 velocity. MHE seemed to changed these a little bit.

So, my experience seems to be that MHE on heads only works for midi hits of the same velocity that are close together. And it’s therefore not the same as recording a series of “non-cold start” snare hits and then slicing them up.

Finally, back to the question of how SD generates its samples on playback (issue number 1 in my original post). With humanisation set to “Random + Vel to Vol + Soft Vel” I basically just get one sample – the same one – played back repeatedly for a back-beat snare. I don’t quite understand why, if there are15-20 (whatever the number is) of samples per velocity layer, SD doesn’t play back a more random series of samples? But it doesn’t. Just one.

If I then switch on “Alt” in humanisation as well, I get 2 samples alternating, and sounding a bit “tick tock”. Again, why only 2? Seems odd. What waste of the other samples in the layer!

Finally, if I go to full all on humanisation (everything on, including Semi Seq), I get some extra samples, which seem to include “hard hit” layer samples (noticeably louder and harsher timbre) and some noticeably softer (volume and timbre) samples from lower gradient hit layers. As mentioned, this makes the drums very hard to sit in the mix.

So, my basic point remains – how to get SD to play those 15-20 samples in the relevant velocity layer randomly, rather than just one or two? As far as I can tell, SD doesn’t really work in this regard. At least, not as I would have expected it to, based on what it says in the manual.

As mentioned, you have a great product. And I’ve found a way of working around this using audio bounces. Plus I actually don’t mind if back beat snares and the kick are identical – I think in a mix you get some psycho-acoustic effects which fox all but diligent and experienced listeners into thinking the hits are subtly different.

Anyway, this started out as some feedback for TT from just one happy used on how to improve your product.

Rgds,
Mark

[Mark Perrett]

You forget my age – drum machine sounds are GOOD! (80s not 90s ones…).

But more seriously, the real issue is number 1. in my original post. I understand where TT are coming from in trying to get a “realistic” drum sound with variation as played by a real drummer, but the sample engine – at least in my hands and with Semi Seq switched on – produces snare hits which are OK, OK FAR TOO LOUD and then far too soft. The lesser evil is to have identical snare hits for the back-beats – which at least have a groove to them and you can hear clearly in the mix without having to mash them with limiting/compression/distortion to even out the levels… …and then every time the drummer does something interesting go back to random / alternate humanisation. It works for me. The only issue as mentioned is the cutting and pasting of all the audio bounces to assemble the compilation tracks. Anyway, thanks for the helpful steers. Rgds, Mark

[Mark Perrett]

Thanks Ollie. I use MHE all the time on rides and crashes, as you suggest (not hi hats). I haven’t tried it in a while on drums, but it’s good reminder, so I will do so.

Have a think about Seq Hits for drums. It was one of the few high spots in my abortive drum sampling efforts! The downside is – for it to work properly it seems to me you need to do the sampling at a similar tempo to the final song.

One other thing I’ve been doing recently is switching the voice limit to 1 for kick / snare / toms. My rationale for doing this is that e.g. for kicks, I managed to convince myself that the tail of one sample could interfere destructively with the following kick sample. Also, on the snares of some kits I thought I heard a weird flanging effect due to the snare rattle tail of one sample comb filtering with the tail of the following sample. Maybe this is all in my imagination, and I should get out more… However, setting the voice limit to 1 should, it seems to me, eliminate any potential “over-lapping sample” gremlins on kick / snare / toms. Obviously different for especially rides, because there you DO want overlapping samples. Overall, though, as I thought about this more and more, voice limits >1 felt to me like it was asking for overlapping sample trouble on drums…

In fact now I AM going out. To the gym! Thx for the help.

Rgds,
Mark

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