Bear-Faced Cow
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Bear-Faced CowYes, SD3 will follows all variations within a Logic Tempo track. I’m often using it around a tempo track that was automatically mapped around a guitar guide track, which is very handy because I don’t have to think about the tempo. Logic is excellent that way.
jord
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Thanked by: Rick ZanderBear-Faced CowSorry, should have made it a little clearer on what needed to be done. I obviously created a misunderstanding in my earlier post, and should have clarified this extra step. Sorry. You need to route your SD3 multi-out into a bus. Logic’s default setting is to create a new aux track when you assign a bus. However, if it didn’t, simply create a new aux track in the mixer and assign the input to that bus. In fact, you will want to have two aux tracks. The Stereo Link is actually a button in itself. Click on it and it will show you a bunch of input options. From there, you can select Right or Left.
Do yourself a favour: once you set this all up, either create a track stack or a template and save it for later recall.
jord
Bear-Faced CowThis is not an SD3 limitation, or a Logic limitation at that. This is a CoreAudio limitation that has been lingering since the early 16-bit days pre-Intel. While Apple has address many other CoreAudio issues, this has not yet been on their radar.
That limitation found its way into Logic in 2007 as Apple strives to make it fully CoreAudio compliant.
However, had you been posting within the actual SD3 help forum, I could refer you to a thread that I have been involved showing how to squeeze a few mono outs in Logic thus giving you more outputs.
jord
Bear-Faced CowAs with any MIDI controller, you want to adjust the velocity curve to match your playing. The curve on your iRig is probably set to linear. You want to set it to something like Soft (that’s what it is on my Maschine controllers). If you have a sensitivity adjustment, I would suggest turning that up as well.
jord
Bear-Faced CowSo inverting phase on the OVH bleed mics shouldn’t give me phase cancellation one way or the other?
I didn’t say that. I said they’re not going to cancel out completely. Dynamic and Condenser microphones have different frequency response curves.
The kit I’ve made is an amalgam of several kits. I didn’t really like any of the default kits. I’m using some Pearl kicks, Tama and Gretsch snares and Ludwig toms.
Not too different from any of my presets and projects. Dynamic OH’s still have the close mic.
Basically what I want to do is control SD3 the same way I’d control live drum takes. Or as close to as I can get. I’m just trying to get everything in phase. I usually get my OVH’s sounding great and then add in my close mics. Obviously, these aren’t live drum takes so there will be some tradeoffs, but I’m just trying to get as close as I can.
You’re right, they aren’t live. They are already recorded. They should really be treated more as a mix or sound design scenario rather than a recording scenario since the extent of your control is an already recorded signal (George Massenburg already did that part of the work for you). It is probably best to adopt a mixing attitude ask yourself what you are looking for from each set of OH channels, if you need more than one set of OH. I’m not saying that you need only set, but you might like the sound of the snare in the condenser and the toms in the dynamic (or vice versa). You can take what you want from each in order to get a good mix. Carve out the sound you need or create new sonic tonalities.
So my OVH channels (on the channel strips) have phase inversion buttons. That’s the button I should be using to get my OVH’s in phase with each other? Once they’re in phase with each other, I just bring in my samples and check phase against my OVH’s one at a time? That’s how I would assume it would work, but the OVH’s having bleed phase buttons confuses me. If reversing phase on the bleed tracks doesn’t do anything, why would they add them in?
They are doing something. You have to listen more carefully since they will affect a single kit piece in relation to others in that channel, as well as other channels. Again, I think you are way overcomplicating a process that really doesn’t need to be.
I’d also recommend that if you are indeed using 3.1.2, update to 3.1.7
jord
Bear-Faced CowYou might be overcomplicating this. To start, yes you have two overheads. One of them is recorded through a pair of condenser mics and the other record through a pair of dynamic mics. Switching any of the bleeds out of phase won’t do a null cancellation because of the different microphones. If you are using the default Gretsch kit (you didn’t specify nor include a project so it is hard to tell), you will notice that OH Dyn has three close mic’d channels, which is why they are not showing up in the bleed panel (there is another panel underneath). So, in the case you have all of your OH channels. So, yes, you can use one OH (and no, it’s not the easy way – it’s about getting something to sound good in a mix), or if you want to use two, you can mix and match what kit pieces go through each. And of course there’s nothing stopping you from using both OH’s but ask yourself if you are adding or taking away from the mix or if you really need to.
jord
Bear-Faced Cowthe tom rim shot sound will give you the crack you want as does the snare rim shot.
- This post was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Mark King.
Well thats awesome, thank you for that advice! I will try that out the next time.
Edit: I feel the normal center hits, especially on the pearl kit toms, are harder than the rimshots.
I also recently found out that there are 2 different kick hits in the drum map, one being harder than the other. That helps a little bit too.
- This post was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Eraz.
You can also stack them. No processing required and you can design what you’re looking for.
jord
Bear-Faced CowActually, I think you’re the one feeling personally attacked because I don’t agree with you. Or, you wouldn’t have backpedaled when I called you out. I only took what you said and nothing more.
That being said…
I miss the last 10-20% of, lets call it “energy”.
It’s there… it’s just buried.
it works for you, well thats good for you. But it has limitations for me
Because you would rather have the pre-processing applied to bring out that energy. That’s fine because there are SDX’s with well-known producers that do it for you because those packs are not one size fits all. And as I said, you couldn’t buy their expertise so cheap. Take it as you want, but you can either pay in money or time to get the results you want.
and other producers as well, as I recently found out by checking other online forums
You can use that all you want to validate your own opinion. Considering that Bob Rock, Mark Lewis and Andy Sneap added their own presets to the Core Library, I’d say that has a little more weight than the mob mentality.
So before giving up on SD3 I wanted to know if there is a way to get these last 10-20% before processing.
If you don’t want to work at it, fine. Leave it at that. If giving up means jumping ship, then perhaps try what I said above to protect your investment rather than invest in another piece of software in protest. It’s not as disappointing and daunting as you’re making it out to be. When I’m not using the Core Library, Rock Foundry is my go-to because it has an amazing late 60’s and early 70’s Ludwig kit that you won’t even find in the Core Library and the fact that it was recorded by Bob Rock almost makes it magic to anything that I apply it to. It’s not just the sound you’re looking for, but probably the kits too. Why not go over to the product page and listen to them… it’s something to think about.
So if you don’t have any constructive advice on that, I would be grateful if I could go on with this conversation here without having to justify myself.
On the contrary. If you can’t take anything that I or anyone else is telling you as constructive and are feeling the need to justify yourself instead, then please feel free to pass over those posts.
jord
Bear-Faced CowOnce you find yourself comfortable with multi-outs in Logic, I highly suggest familiarizing yourself with Track Stacks. This is basically the next level up as it will allow you to save instrument routing configurations and open up new possibilities. One step at a time, however.
jord
Bear-Faced CowI record unprocessed raw drums on a weekly basis, so I dont have to listen to other recordings, as I know how they sound.
Arrogantly put! Not listening to other recordings is rather myopic and rather limiting in itself.
If the aggression is missing in the playing, then every other processing on top of that will still be a compromise. A bad one.
Considering you don’t listen to other recordings, this is a weightless observation. Perhaps you need to listen to other raw recordings to get what I am saying.
And that shows that you don’t get the point. I am well aware what processing is needed to get raw sounding tracks sound “finished”, but the outcome will only be a good sounding performance, if it was played with the right attitude.
Oh, I very well get it. I’ve gotten it for the past 40 years. Not to mention that I have also heard many aggressive recordings in my lifetime where no matter the performance, it doesn’t show in the raw tracks. Raw tracks are just that: RAW! And with everyone mixing in the box these days, it is even worse because everyone is recording without processing and are not going to get what they are after because they’re “fixing” it in the mix. And because this is all in the box, it takes process to bring out the good performance. But then you already know that.
And looking on other forums it seems I am not alone with my impression. Again I am talking about the performance, and the only thing which is missing, what I can think of, is that when sampling the core library, they did not include really heavy hits.
Spare me the mob mentality. Again, this is a one size fits all in the box situation and it takes some processing to bring it out. If they want something more then they need something with the processing already applied. If you’re telling me that the heavy hits aren’t there, then how am I able to bring them out on snares like the Tama Bell Brass and Pearl kick and toms? Tell me all you want about performance, but all you’re telling me in the case is that you want someone else to bring out the performance for you. So, please, go ahead and tell me again how I don’t get it.
Because everything else sounds really really good and real. So yeah, this is a real limitation (at least of the core library) and not a user limitation. Genres like Rock and harder will suffer from that.
Considering that they haven’t suffered on any rock (classic, modern and metal) mixes here, I heavily disagree. A “real” limitation would affect ALL users.
jord
Bear-Faced CowThere are plenty of tutorials on YouTube regarding Logic and multiple outputs, aux tracks and track stacks. They apply to any instrument.
Logic’s help guide is quite comprehensive as well.
jord
Bear-Faced CowIs it possible you have SD3 installed in both your system and user home directory? Plug-ins installed in the user home directory are often read first by applications.
jord
Bear-Faced CowThe SD3 instrument channel could be mono, but the output routing is stereo.
You can create aux tracks in Logic’s mixer and set their input to the instrument output channels. As well, you can set them to the left or the right stereo channel which will make it a mono channel.
The snare bottom is stereo because George Massenburg recorded it as such. There was a thread on this and Toontrack answered as to George’s reason for this.
jord
Bear-Faced CowThese drums sound too soft, even on the max velocity. Of course you can compress and limit the hell out of that, but in the end it will still be a soft hitted drum.
Sorry, but that’s not true. Listen to many raw unprocessed recorded drum tracks and you’ll hear them sounding wimpy, wooly and somewhat limp before any real processing is applied. Compression is more for evening out the dynamics and perhaps bring forth the transients, but that’s only one thing. There are way more techniques to bring out the aggression. You need to figure out what’s best for the song.
Especially for kick/snare and toms, cymbals less but still. It feels like theres missing the last 10-20% of hard hits in all the core libraries. And this youtube video also proofs my point imho.
No… it doesn’t prove your point. Maybe it’s illustrating that you’re not doing something correct in your mix. One of the main reasons that the rock and metal SDX packages sound the way they do is because much of the processing that that you are believing is wrong is applied at the source (ie, is part of the recording process) bringing out that aggression. Because SD3 Core Library is a one size fits all library, applying that type of processing at the source is not a viable idea since it only applies to one genre. Chances are, if you are not getting what you need out of a kit piece, you’re using the wrong kit piece for that track.
If it’s not aggressive, the only reason is because it hasn’t been made to be aggressive. That’s a user limitation and not SD3.
Thank you for the tip! So after spending all that money on SD3 I need to spend another 150$/€? Thats really disappointing…
You couldn’t get a professionally recorded set(s) of drums from Bob Rock, Michael Ilbert or Mark Lewis so cheap, and that’s not even accounting for the time to rent the studio space! If you want all of that stuff that you didn’t want to do yourself, then the above are your people since they’ve done the work for you. There’s no something for nothing.
jord
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Thanked by: Emmanuel CambierBear-Faced CowIt also goes without saying to remember to enable to bleed for that channel for the instruments that you want to go through it.
jord
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Thanked by: lingtalfiNo products in the cart.