Kim MossigeHi,
Why are the SDX packs from Toontrack so wildly unbalanced in terms of mic levels?
I have Decades, State of the Art, and the stock SD3 libraries, and in all of them, the ride cymbal is ridiculously quiet compared to the crashes. I often have to boost the ride +6 dB and pull the crashes down -10 dB, and even then the ride still gets buried in the mix.
I’m using a Roland TD-27KV2 and confirmed that the ride is triggering just as hard as the crashes in MIDI, so this is definitely an issue within Superior Drummer 3, not the module.
Why is it like this?
Bear-Faced CowAside from the fact that rides are perceivably lower in volume than crashes, you also listed the three libraries in which everything is recorded unprocessed.
It is not wildly unbalanced. It is recorded as natural as possible with all of the transients in place. This is what drum mixing is all about: getting everything in balance.
jord
1
Thanked by: BradKim MossigeAside from the fact that rides are perceivably lower in volume than crashes, you also listed the three libraries in which everything is recorded unprocessed.
It is not wildly unbalanced. It is recorded as natural as possible with all of the transients in place. This is what drum mixing is all about: getting everything in balance.
jord
Thank you, so nothing wrong in other words? when recording real drums, the drummer can hear it much better than when recording with these sd3 libraries.
Some tips om how to properly hear everything and balance volume early in the production? I feel the volume difference is so big that it really don’t translate of how I hear a real drum kit when playing on real drums. A 16db perceived loudness difference is quite big.
Btw what do you mean by the sounds not being processed? They’re eq-ed, saturated and compressed on the channels by default on all presets, all as the processed button is ticked on each pad
Bear-Faced Cowwhen recording real drums, the drummer can hear it much better than when recording with these sd3 libraries.
Not true at all. Drummers are not only hearing the entire room along with the drums, their overall hearing may also be affected by the volume of the drums. Ears are natural compressors. Recording drums in the SDX libraries separate the room from the kits. In this case, it’s more about getting a clean recorded kit so that you as the user can engineer the mix.
And considering the libraries in question were done by Elliot Shiner, Al Schmidt, and George Massenburg, I highly doubt that there is an issue with their hearing abilities
Some tips om how to properly hear everything and balance volume early in the production? I feel the volume difference is so big that it really don’t translate of how I hear a real drum kit when playing on real drums.
That’s where drum mixing comes in. You’re playing with recorded drums. That’s different from real drums. You have to approach the sound with an engineer mentality as opposed to a drummer mentality.
Btw what do you mean by the sounds not being processed? They’re eq-ed, saturated and compressed on the channels by default on all presets, all as the processed button is ticked on each pad
I’m not talking presets. You can do anything you want within a preset. I’m talking about the actual recording capture. These particular engineers were known for getting their sound old school before George M. ever invented the EQ. It was all about the mic and its placement.
jord
1
Thanked by: Kim Mossige
Mark KingI must admit that I have to turn up the ride cymbals in just about every kit. That’s been the case since sd3 was released. It never bothered me but as a drummer they are definitely not as loud as I hear from my real drums without headphones. Also when I have my drums miked up with overheads I still hear the ride without the crashes being too loud. By the way I use dry kits when playing and only process or change the preset after recording the midi. I find it feels more like playing my real drum kit that way.
SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors
1
Thanked by: Kim MossigeKim MossigeRight, i feel exactly the same. The gain is very different, im sure they recorded it well, but wasn’t properly balanced when releasing the software
Bear-Faced CowAs I said, that is where drum mixing comes in. That’s why you have a mixer tab. It’s no different when recording a song.
jord
Kim MossigeIn real life scenario we’d do proper gains staging before tracking to make it somewhat levelled during tracking, so no, this is not natural
Bear-Faced CowGain staging is not mixing. Gain staging is not about establishing volume. Gain staging is about finding the sweet spot in your mixer for the best sound. Mixing is about balancing the signals. In any recording you are not mixing.
in many of these SDXs, the presets were done by the producers. They know their genres and have the Grammys to show for it. If they don’t suit you, you are free to change them. You have that freedom. However, it is not ToonTrack’s issue if you find them unbalanced for your liking.
You may also have other factors such as masking from other signals. That can emphasize some kit pieces while diminishing some kit pieces… such as the ride. This is also what mixing is about. Not everything is solved by volume.
jord
Damian BluntGenerally the levels of overhead and ambience microphones are set when sound checking the whole drum kit and are not altered on an instrument by instrument basis throughout the sampling process. The engineer or producer almost always sets the microphones up as they would do in a regular tracking session so the balance should be very natural and consistent with what you would hear on a record.
I just clicked on the edge articulations in State of the Art and Decades SDX’s and compared with the crashes and there is a small variation in level but that would be largely down to the differences in the instruments. In Decades default preset the left hand crash is actually quieter than the ride when comparing like for like articulations.
Damian Blunt - Toontrack
Quality Assurance
Betatesting
1
Thanked by: Kim MossigeKim MossigeGot it, tall makes sense, it did from the first reply. I just didn’t get the insane difference, but in the past days I’ve come to the conclusion that it might be a bad td27kv2 profile. Adjusting a lot of the onboard settings on the sound module itself seemed to mitigate the insane volume differences I’ve had, a difference that was way more prominent through sd3 than the local control sounds, for some reason
Mark KingThe module is much more forgiving of trigger settings not set to optimal for the player. SD3 is a lot more dynamic. Setting module triggers up is the first step to triggering SD3 correctly.
SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors
Kim MossigeYes, but the confusing part is that the ride was always – from day one – making the exact same velocity output as the other cymbals. So it was not a key giveaway that it had to further be tweaked on the sound module itself. It was first when I started messing with a few small tweaks like sensitivity and having an exponential curve that the real ride-feeling was being transferred to SD3, to be felt like I’m used with real drums.
No products in the cart.
Get all the latest on new releases,
updates and offers directly to your inbox.
Note: By clicking the 'I WANT IN' button, you will not be creating a Toontrack user account. You will only sign up to get our newsletters, offers and promotions to your inbox. You can unsubscribe at any time from a link at the bottom of each email. If you want to learn more about our privacy policy, please find detailed information here.