USING METALHEADS KIT W/ OTHER TOONTRACK MIDI

[Leevious]

Hello Hopefully this is the right forum to ask this...

Hello
Hopefully this is the right forum to ask this question – I just purchased my copy of Metalheads EZX this afternoon, and was anxious to hear the new kits. They sound amazing with the included MIDI, however, when I use the Metalheads kits with the MIDI from Library of the Extreme, the blast beats sound ‘weak’ and many of the snare hits do not come through (this is especially apparent with the gravity blasts). I’ve tried tweaking the levels using the mixer, and this did not make much of a difference, if at all. It would just make the snare hits that did come through louder. I also noticed this with quick double bass passages (some double bass sounded like triplets instead of a steady beat). Is there a way to make the hits sound more consistent?
Any help would be most appreciated, thanks.

Hello
Hopefully this is the right forum to ask this question – I just purchased my copy of Metalheads EZX this afternoon, and was anxious to hear the new kits. They sound amazing with the included MIDI, however, when I use the Metalheads kits with the MIDI from Library of the Extreme, the blast beats sound ‘weak’ and many of the snare hits do not come through (this is especially apparent with the gravity blasts). I’ve tried tweaking the levels using the mixer, and this did not make much of a difference, if at all. It would just make the snare hits that did come through louder. I also noticed this with quick double bass passages (some double bass sounded like triplets instead of a steady beat). Is there a way to make the hits sound more consistent?
Any help would be most appreciated, thanks.

Topic

[Leevious]

After playing around with the velocities using the Metalheads kits with Library of the Extreme MIDI, I’m not able to get proper sounding passages either. As I had stated in an earlier post, some of the more straight-forward beats seemed to sound okay (after turning up the velocity), but the gravity blasts and especially fills are still lacking. I tried using some compression afterwards, but it wasn’t able to bring out the weaker sounding hits (as illustrated in the MP3 above). Increasing the velocity in the editor after the fact made it sound worse. Again, any more help would be appreciated…

[zazelsodo]

Rogue,

Here is the midi file I promised. It has two measures of “groove” and then the fill that seems to be not working, then a few more measures of “groove”

I DID notice that the note durations during the fill are all either 0 or 8, so I tried to edit them to be between 75 and 128, like the other note durations in the rest of the midi file, but it didn’t help.

You should hear a noticeable difference in the quality of the hits for the snare and crashes in the “problem fill”

Thanks!
-zaz

[Scott]

The note ‘duration’ has no effect for drum sample MIDI. I don’t know what host you are using but most will offer a ‘Drum mode’ view of the MIDI events in the MIDI editor that are diamond or triangle shaped as you only need to see that a note has been triggered, not how long that note has been triggered as you can’t sustain a drum hit.

Anyways, if you want the fill to ‘hit harder’ like the main groove, I would go in and edit the softer snare hits. The fill snare seems to be about 90-110 in velocity with a couple of ghost hits about 45 velocity.

Here is the same MIDI with the fill snare hits turned up hotter.

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[Rogue]

I can only concur with Scott, and my own previous posts – after looking at the MIDI. There is an obvious MIDI velocity ‘character’ difference to the track between fill and parts that precede and follows it, from a purely numerical point of view, as expected.

On a side note, the ‘groove’ MIDI right at the beginning looks nothing like Toontrack MIDI, is it from one of our library? Not that it matters for what we are discussing here but out of curiosity.

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[zazelsodo]

Guys,

1) I know what Drum view is, I use Sonar
2) I thought the same thing, that duration should have nothing to do with it. But looking in the Event viewer, it was the ONLY thing that I could obviously note between the two midi parts

OBVIOUSLY the snare velocity is different, it’s a fill that came from your songwriter fillpack. If there was no velocity change then it wouldn’t sound like a snare roll.

And yes, the groove at the beginning and after the fill are from Toontrack. They’re from the MIDI library that accompanies DFH.

But your change brings me back to the original comparison that I was making. That the fill sounds COMPLETELY different with Drumkit from Hell. The snares never lose their punch. If I have to go into every snare and crash that is in everyone one of the fills that is in the Songwriters fillpack, then the EZX is useless to me. There’s nothing “quick” and useful about it. Might as well stay with DFH.

3) Are you saying that because MetalHeads is newer it’s more sensitive to note velocities than DFH? So much so, that a hit in DFH at 111, and a hit in MetalHeads at the same velocity will sound SO drastically different, that Metalheads almost sound like ghost notes

So I guess I’m left with the only thing left to do…since it’s now obvious, to me at least, that Metalheads doesn’t perform as expected with the very midi pack libraries that you guys sell, is there anyway I can return it? De-Authorize it, so it won’t work on my computer, and get my money back? It’s unfortunate that I won’t be able to use it, as it sounds great when it works…but I’d rather spend my $$$ on something that I may actually use, like the Nashville EZX.

Thanks for all the hard work and effort guys, but I just don’t think you’re hearing and seeing the problems that I, and to some extent, Leevious, are experiencing.

Please let me know if a refund is possible.

Thanks!
-zaz

[Rogue]

you should contact the shipping office about a refund, using the support portal or the contact form from the main site.

As for your issue with MetalHeads specifically, it certainly performs as designed with a particular character for the hard hits (velocity 127). It is all the more versatile for it in my opinion but it is clear you have expectations that do not fit well in that context.

… wishing you all the best assembling tracks from multiple sources. RM

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[Leevious]

Hey Again
Not to keep kicking at this issue, but I am able to import any Toontrack MIDI (DFH, Library of the Extreme, Rock etc) into any other kit (DFH, Rock and Pop, even the Jazz and Nashville kit at my brother’s), and have the beats sound terrific – even the blasts sound good on the Jazz kit! Everything sounds consistant and life-like. It is only when I try and use MIDI other than what is supplied with Metalheads on the two Metalheads kits that I have problems. I understand that differently recorded hits (velocity-wise) will translate differently (as pointed out in an earlier post), but wouldn’t this then affect (for example) the Jazz MIDI, which I’m assuming was played at a different ‘velocity’ than say the DFH/Rock beats? I can’t seem to get my head around why I would need to make such dramatic adjustments only for this EZX/kits – everything else works so seemlessly and effortlessly. Even when I do make adjustments, it is not comparable to the other kits. For a relative beginner like myself, going in and changing individual hits in the editor (especially considering how much work that would be) is not possible. Again, if anyone has any input on this, please post.
Thanks again, looking forward to the upcoming releases.

[Leevious]

…any chance of there being a patch later on to assist with this?

[zazelsodo]

Leevious,

According to Rogue and Scott, the MetalHeads EZX is performing as expecting. It appears to be optimized for harder, more aggressive hits. Meaning snare drums with lower velocities, such as flutter snares in blast beats, will not carry the same emphasis. There is nothing to fix, so it would appear that you can either accept it for what it is, and move on, or request to return the product like I am.

I would consider this matter, for me at least, resolved.

Scott and Rogue…thank you so much for your time and information. I apologize if I was rude at any point…I realize sometimes that trying to write very descriptive processes can sound condescending, and that was never the intention. I am completely in love with the Toontrack products, and appreciate the level and speed of responses in the forums.

Thanks again for everything!
-zaz

[Leevious]

Thanks Zaz – I agree with you, the amount of help and speed that it comes via this forum is outstanding.
Looking forward to the next two releases… again, thanks to all for the input!

[Butter Buns]

Are you saying that because MetalHeads is newer it’s more sensitive to note velocities than DFH? So much so, that a hit in DFH at 111, and a hit in MetalHeads at the same velocity will sound SO drastically different, that Metalheads almost sound like ghost notes

@zazelsodo for someone whos been using midi drums for a decade im surprised that you cant hear the difference in sample layering between the metalheads ezx and the DFH ezx. i just loaded up both ezx packs in TT solo, set two tracks in ezplayer pro to each of the ezx’s and auditioned the exact same midi sequence on both ezx’s from different midi libraries. first thing i noticed was how much more layered the metalheads is than DFH. so obviously, yes, the exact same midi sequence is going to sound alot different. you know you can turn the velocity knob to the right…

@leevious its not that difficult to create multi outputs in reaper. at first it may seem daunting but once you have it done you can save your project as a template and never have to deal with multi routing again heres what you do… create one track in reaper and put ezdrummer on it then you need to create more tracks, say about 8 tracks maybe more depending on what you want to route into reaper. once those 8 empty tracks are created then go to the ezdrummer track and you’re going to have to create sends to all those empty tracks. HUZZAH! you’ve just multi outed into reaper. fun times, huh?

if you need more info hit me up. ive also got a project template file i can send you in case you’re too lazy ^__^

[Leevious]

Hey Vincenizzzle
Thanks for the offer – I believe I have the multi-outs figured out now. Regarding using the velocity knob, I do find that it still doesn’t entirely help out with the gravity blasts and blasts in general, although it does make a difference. Fast grooves/fills still don’t sound as natural as they do with the DFH EZX – some drum hits still don’t sound powerful enough. Not really sure if there is a way around this, but on a different note, the new LOTE MIDI pack is amazing.
Thanks again!

[Butter Buns]

yea i was being sarcastic about the velocity knob. sorry what it basically comes down to is how much time your willing to spend editing the midi data. dirk’s hits are very light compared to the DFH midi library for example. i noticed right off the bat the difference in the way the midi files trigger both metalheads and DFH. also the DFH has a compression channel whereas metalheads does not so that definitely helps things sound bigger and more powerful for that ezx. i compensated for this by creating a compression track and sending all of reapers drum output tracks to it. i think thats whats called sidechain compression if im not mistaken? also as for the fills i noticed dirk does alot of tom and kick work for his fills (my preference is for snare work in the fills a la gridlink’s bryan fajardo) so in the metalheads this really didnt translate well with the default settings. i upped the tom faders in ezdrummers mixer and that fixed the fills real quick. posted a jpg of the sidechain comp

btw, i really dont see the point in going through all the trouble of returning a piece of software when that effort can best be spent being creative with it to get the sounds you want/need.

[Author]

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