Shen GI cluttered up another thread with this so trying it here.
Musing on how much SDX’s have improved over time and admiring how good I think the sampling in Real to Reel is, particularly with e-drum playability. That the viability of using e-drums and Superior Drummer exclusively is greater than ever. And guessing that the lack of cymbals sampled in RtR could be part of the reason that the kits, esp the snares, seem to have the most detailed sampling yet. I joked that it’s the closest they’ve gone to sampling 127 different velocity hits, making them the most natural feeling snares to play imo. Or perhaps all the space saved from lack of cymbals went to the tape samples, IDK.
It also came up that aren’t any other tools used/sampled (brushes/rods etc) or with snare wires off. I remarked that when an SDX does have those they are usually not on the drums I want them on. As a drummer it can be frustrating not being able to do some of the things we take for granted on a real kit. Snare wires, tool use, different kinds and amounts of dampening, different head types etc.
With all that in mind I thought a paired back selection of drums/rooms could allow for a kit to be sampled so detailed and thoroughly that many of those limitations could be avoided. Even if it’s a single kit, hopefully at least 7 piece, something high end and as versatile as possible. 3 or so kicks. Snares, while you never really can have too many imo, hopefully a half dozen of well thought out selection could give enough range to do most things. Cymbals IDK, I guess they take up the most space and would need to be paired back, but I’m also fine with buying more storage space if need be 😉 Recorded clean and natural in a quality studio with a professional producer of course.
As much as I love and expect TT to continue with producer/genre packs, and they’re ideal for trying to get as close to sounds we’re are familiar with and love, perhaps drummers could come up with something that feels more their own identity.
Just putting it out there. Keen to hear others thoughts/opinions. Are there not that many e-drummers out there thinking this way? Would it be too boring or restrictive for TT to make money? Any other ideas on an SDX being the most customizable, do anything you want with it that you could do if you owned the kit/studio for real.
Cheers.
SD3 with Real to Reel, Fields of Rock, Drum Factory, Death and Darkness, Legacy of Rock, Hitmaker, Stories, State of the Art, Decades, Stockholm, Jazz Sessions, Hansa, Rock Foundry, Area 33 (in order of preference). Plus a few older SDX's and EZX's.
Into: Reaper with Ryzen 5700x, 32GB RAM and assorted SSD's.
Through: Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 Gen2 USB Audio Interface
From: eDRUMin 10 + eDRUMin 8 with assorted Roland and Yamaha pads.
WolfgangI would second that to a certain extent. Having more options tool-wise instead of having to switch to completely different sounding kits would be a big benefit for e-drummers. Of course not in every style and with every drum. But let’s say with some of the favourites – a modern sounding DW, some vintage Ludwig, alltimers like a Recording Custom. Examples being the Songwriter Kit from Stories, the Modern Kit from the Jazz Sessions or the Hillside Kit from R2R.
I wouldn’t go so far as to switch head types or dampening, that would mean a huge amount of effort for too little effect. You can get pretty far with the velocity curves to shape attacks and releases.
drumjack52I feel where you’re coming from. Felt mallets for cymbal swells/rolls and not just sticks. Or felt mallets for rack and floor toms. Or how about an SDX that just has a plethora of cymbals and tools used. fxpansion did just that with at least one library with Zildjian cymbals. Yeah you could pull cymbals from the different SDX’s one owns but they’d all sound different because of where and how they were sampled. Would be nice to have a uniform sound.
You mention velocity levels – does anyone know how many levels are used in a typical SDX? Are they the same across all SDX’s?
Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram
pumpkinkingWhen I read your request, I thought “isn’t that what Core is?”
Everyone is different, and I personally lean toward the SDXs with more personality and variety. What I do most is play the e-drums, I don’t record often and I try to minimize the time I’m at the kit with a mouse in my hand (I get enough of that 9-5). So the SDXs with more “terroir” (borrowing a wine term) appeal to me. I can quickly flip through rooms/kits that I have tweaked based on my own biases (darker cymbals, deep snares, resonant kicks) but all sound very different due to room shape, mic placement, dampening/tuning, sound path, etc. I’m not talking about presets, I’m talking about the sound of an SDX “room” even with the default kit loaded. Case in point: when an SDX is recorded with a “corridor”, “stairwell” or other remotely-located mic, I like bringing a little bit in – it is a colorful room sound that sounds better and is easier to use than complex reverb effects (for me, anyway).
I don’t use Core much unless there is hardware I’d like to try and my pile of SDXs do not have it (rods/brushes are a reason, although between Decades and Jazz Sessions there are some interesting options). I find Core to be well recorded, but lacking in a unique sound, and it requires work to get it there.
To each his own, and I’m not discounting your request, merely offering my perspective on why the producer SDXs tend to provide me with a good experience. With the myriad options of kit pieces, brands/styles, kit tuning/dampening, mic placement/hardware, sound treatment, etc, any SDX that was aimed at showcasing the e-drum dynamics of a single kit would have to make concessions that would be good for some but not for others, IMO.
Shen GThanks for the contributions all.
I know taking the concept to the extreme would be totally impractical. Not every kit could have all stick/mallets/rods/brushes. All possible muffling, heads types etc, but chosen appropriately with the choice of drums recorded. ps. a set recorded with muffling rings would be grand 😉
It was you Wolfgang saying if required for your band to change your sound up for a song, you’d sooner change tools than whole kits that struck a chord with me…. or a rhythm if you will… As much as I love playing along to covers and getting as close to the original sound as possible, it’s what fuels my SDX addiction, but with playing with friends let alone originals a sounds that fits in with them is more important.
Examples being the Songwriter Kit from Stories
Ahh man, not the biggest fan of Stories but absolutely love that kit and agree.
Yeah you could pull cymbals from the different SDX’s one owns but they’d all sound different because of where and how they were sampled. Would be nice to have a uniform sound.
Yeah, it could be lack of ability on my behalf but I’m never happy with the sound from mixing and matching SDX’s. I also want to drum first and foremost (this mixing business is fascinating but harder than I thought). That idea of gear based pack’s may be getting as close to what I’m thinking. But they would all have to be recorded in the same space with same gear etc. Something for SD4’s core perhaps?
does anyone know how many levels are used in a typical SDX?
I have no idea but I guesstimate by install size divided by number of drums/mics kind of thing that they gone up somewhat over time. As much as I praise RtR for being flawless snare sampling low to high velocity wise, since D&D it has been pretty much perfect. It’s more of a “I can’t point to any faults previously, but RtR just sounds real”. Only Rock Foundry has a really obvious transition at like 95-96 velocity iirc. I think it’s the range they’ve really nailed with it. Some packs lightest notes seem way too loud/hard. Area 33 makes some sense, but even Stockholm iirc (not at drums). And Core for me not being hit hard enough. I’m sure it must have been but I don’t feel the energy.
when an SDX is recorded with a “corridor”, “stairwell” or other remotely-located mic, I like bringing a little bit in – it is a colorful room sound that sounds better and is easier to use than complex reverb effects
That has to be my favourite mixing trick/thing to do. A touch of devil-loc is my choice. I would always want a far mic like that include in any SDX.
any SDX that was aimed at showcasing the e-drum dynamics of a single kit would have to make concessions that would be good for some but not for others, IMO.
yeah, I’m kind of coming around to it being infeasible. I know I’d buy some, but may not be worth it for TT. But I also would have thought that with how SD3/SDX’s are made, but here we are!
Cheers.
SD3 with Real to Reel, Fields of Rock, Drum Factory, Death and Darkness, Legacy of Rock, Hitmaker, Stories, State of the Art, Decades, Stockholm, Jazz Sessions, Hansa, Rock Foundry, Area 33 (in order of preference). Plus a few older SDX's and EZX's.
Into: Reaper with Ryzen 5700x, 32GB RAM and assorted SSD's.
Through: Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 Gen2 USB Audio Interface
From: eDRUMin 10 + eDRUMin 8 with assorted Roland and Yamaha pads.
MintberryCrunchsnare wires off
I second this! Please record more wires-off versions of all relevant kit pieces directly after recording the wires-on versions in order to prevent different tunings.
joDOWNES+1 for this. just starting to explore toontracks given the step up with their more recent releases (decades, etc) and greatly prefer well engineered drums vs producer packs which don’t make any sense for original productions. drummers always have an array of beater/options and have been known to change them up in the middle of a take so this would be useful when working up arrangements. I’m not up to speed with every aspect of SD3 yet, but anticipating some configuration challenges to setup a custom kit to emulate this capability (kit piece selection, layering? mixing? midi mapping, etc. idk… )
the most recent EZXs seem to be bringing some real value so perhaps there’s an opportunity for a line of kit focused SDXs with tool and perhaps room options given what they’ve done so far. just saying…
Bear-Faced CowThese things you’re asking for are available in both the core library and the Jazz Sessions SDX. Not sure I understand what you’re asking here.
jord
Shen GI’m glad to see I’m not totally alone in this. I’m still thinking it wont really be feasible though. It seems it would end up being about as much work as the current SDX’s, but a lot harder to market/sell a 1 kit SDX at the same price. As much as I want it.
I’m surprised you don’t appreciate the improvements in “sound quality” post core library more, Jord. I don’t really have the words to describe it, but the effect of closing ones eyes and believing you a behind a real kit in a real room doesn’t really happen for me until Death and Darkness.
Makes me wonder if there IS room for a third drum product. EZX’s for song writers. And may be some kind of split of SDX’s for drummers and for composer/mixer types.
Cheers.
SD3 with Real to Reel, Fields of Rock, Drum Factory, Death and Darkness, Legacy of Rock, Hitmaker, Stories, State of the Art, Decades, Stockholm, Jazz Sessions, Hansa, Rock Foundry, Area 33 (in order of preference). Plus a few older SDX's and EZX's.
Into: Reaper with Ryzen 5700x, 32GB RAM and assorted SSD's.
Through: Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 Gen2 USB Audio Interface
From: eDRUMin 10 + eDRUMin 8 with assorted Roland and Yamaha pads.
Bear-Faced CowI’m surprised you don’t appreciate the improvements in “sound quality” post core library more, Jord. I don’t really have the words to describe it, but the effect of closing ones eyes and believing you a behind a real kit in a real room doesn’t really happen for me until Death and Darkness.
That’s because the things that you are describing has very little to do with a song. There are many ex-BFD users that can attest to the kind of realism you are talking about, myself included. That doesn’t mean that it is well recorded for a song or genre. And no matter how real you believe it is, it’s useless if it doesn’t work in a song.
The earlier expansions that you describe as “unrealistic” are some of the best packs that fit into a song, plain and simple. In fact, many of these expansions were recorded to be period correct (Eddie Kramer used a Helios preamp for his kits as that is how he recorded bands such as Zeppelin and The Stones. Bob Rock used many of these techniques he used to capture Metallica and Motley Crue. I’ve used that pack more often in a mix because it was almost magical in the energy it added to the songs. That is what matters to me. I’ve also used The Progressive Foundry in numerous mixes because it’s very energetic and the kits work.
I audition many kits when setting up a mix, or even pre-production prior to recording other instruments or vocals. Energy is what I look for. Not whether it sounds like a real drum kit is sitting next to me. If I can’t find the energy I need make a song sound exciting in the kit I’m auditioning, I move on.
That, to me, is what it is all about
jord
1
Thanked by: drumjack52WolfgangDon’t want to argue too much about sound quality of certain SDXs or core because that’s in many cases a matter of taste. I think it’s more about options and versatility. Of course there are some few sets with alternative tools but that feels like a limitation when there are (didn’t really count them…) 100+ kits with snare wires and sticks. I do have some favourite kits that I play live, during rehearsals or in writing sessions. But whenever there is the need or wish to switch to rods or mallets or simply switch off snare wires I have to use kits that I wouldn’t take if I had more choices.
I wouldn’t make this a third product as SD3 has everything (and more) you need to get great results and tailor the sounds to your needs. And would not go too far and wish for sampling only one set with options in heads, tunings, dampenings, etc. But I do see a market for kits with more variations in tools.
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