SD variable hihat engine lacks the option of not triggering closer stages by foot movement after open strokes

Superior Drummer 3 Help
Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 24 total)
  • John
    Moderator

    Hi,

    without having your SD3 Project and just looking at your MIDI file, I’m guessing you are not using the Trig scheme intended for opening and closing the HH via CC messages.
    You are triggering the ‘Open 2’ articulation directly, not one of the ‘Trig’ notes, right?
    Do you have a module attached and do you have a MIDI In/E-drums mapping Preset active?

    BR,
    John

    John Rammelt - Toontrack
    Technical Advisor

    MintberryCrunch
    Participant

    “You are triggering the ‘Open 2’ articulation directly, not one of the ‘Trig’ notes, right?”
    “Do you have a module attached and do you have a MIDI In/E-drums mapping Preset active?”

    I use the Roland TD9 Preset so A#1 is the TipTrig articulation.

    “I’m guessing you are not using the Trig scheme intended for opening and closing the HH via CC messages.”

    Of course my CC messages are triggering the different open closed stages: why else would I achieve such a sound???

    The issue is quite old: I already complained in 2014 on SD2 : https://www.toontrack.com/forum/superior-drummer-2-help/closing-variable-hihat-sounds-more-or-less-shaky/

    The answer back then was the invitation to edit the CC curve but as I already said: “(ok, you might say: reduce the stages – but sometimes I want them!)”Wink

    If you still don’t know what I mean please compare the hihat CC reaction with AddictiveDrums or BFD – then you’ll easily learn the difference. And as I mentioned the variable hihat in these samplers does not react authentically [-> a max open stroke is only altered (muted) by the pedal articulation; increasing CC values (= relatively slow foot movement towards the closed position) won’t affect its release time!] BUT when playing e-drums I often prefer this behaviour because there won’t be any shaky or jittery sound.Wink

    Olof Westman
    Forum Crew

    There is a new feature in SD3 that allows the user to construct a CC controlled switch
    of their own. It is mostly intended for positional triggering of cymbals but it could
    probably be used in your situation too.

    Olof Westman - Toontrack
    Coder

    MintberryCrunch
    Participant

    @Olle said:
    There is a new feature in SD3 that allows the user to construct a CC controlled switch
    of their own. It is mostly intended for positional triggering of cymbals but it could
    probably be used in your situation too.  

    Are you talking about the “Hi-Hat Pedal Control” with its slider points? Then I cannot see this is in any context of my claim…sorry.

    Dear developers at TT, please ask yourself why nearly all other manufacturers of drum sampler software implement that different variable hihat reaction.Wink

    Olof Westman
    Forum Crew

    >Are you talking about the “Hi-Hat Pedal Control” with its slider points? Then I cannot see this is in any context of my claim…sorry.

    No. It is in the MIDI in/E-drums settings tab. You select an incomming note, e.g. 46, and then,
    in the Mapping and Response window, assign articulations to CC-zones. I asked around
    and it seems that the maximum is 3 zones and that is probably not enough for you. I think that
    limit may be increased in some future update.

    >Dear developers at TT, please ask yourself why nearly all other manufacturers of drum sampler software implement that different variable hihat reaction.Wink

    Because they can’t do what we do, mainly because they use diskstreaming.

    Our CC-hihats, on the other hand, are not implemented in the samplers but
    in the soundlibraries. Some sound expansions may have exactly the kind of CC-hihat
    you are after, if that suits the sounds, e.g. electronic sounds. Some just don’t
    have any CC-hihat support at all. Unfortunately this means that changing
    between different kinds of CC-support is a non-trivial exercise.

    Olof Westman - Toontrack
    Coder

    MintberryCrunch
    Participant

    >No. It is in the MIDI in/E-drums settings tab. You select an incomming note, e.g. 46, and then,
    in the Mapping and Response window, assign articulations to CC-zones. I asked around
    and it seems that the maximum is 3 zones and that is probably not enough for you. I think that
    limit may be increased in some future update.

    Ok, you mean that kind of PositionalSensing feature? I’ll check this out. But remember: a high detailed hihat has 8 open closed stages…Wink

    >Our CC-hihats, on the other hand, are not implemented in the samplers but
    in the soundlibraries. Some sound expansions may have exactly the kind of CC-hihat
    you are after, if that suits the sounds, e.g. electronic sounds.

    Come on, you shall know what kind of hihats I mean (“the variable hihat set up to many open-closed-stages” (from my first post)): the high detailed ones, otherwise my claim does not make any senseWink

    >Because they can’t do what we do, mainly because they use diskstreaming.

    AddictiveDrums uses diskstreaming??? And what does this have to do with diskstreaming??
    I really appreciate the SD hihat in its current state (as it is most authentical despite these “artefacts”) and I know you guys do a fantastic job and I really am a TT fanboy (as a drum teacher I always recommend TT software to my students) but can’t you realize that software drummers should have a choice to also get the CC hihat the way I’m after? Listen to my sound file if you still ask whyWink

    MintberryCrunch
    Participant

    @Olle said:
    No. It is in the MIDI in/E-drums settings tab. You select an incomming note, e.g. 46, and then,
    in the Mapping and Response window, assign articulations to CC-zones. I asked around
    and it seems that the maximum is 3 zones and that is probably not enough for you. I think that
    limit may be increased in some future update.  

    Thank you for this tip. I’ve checked this option and it would fit perfectly to my demand if CC-zones would be increased (to 8 for all possible hihat stages). PLEASE make this soon available with an update to fit all e-drummers’ needs and stay awesome!

    Mark King
    Participant

    I must admit I agree with you on this. I struggle with the shift between and get the stuttering. It’s not too bad when playing but stands out when recording. I find I have to manually edit the controller information to make it sound natural. The idea is good but I got better results with SD2. I still think this needs a bit more work on it to make it more natural.

    SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors

    Olof Westman
    Forum Crew

    What sort of edits do you typically make?

    Olof Westman - Toontrack
    Coder

    Mark King
    Participant

    The edits I make basically square off the cc information at the openness I want it. If I look at the cc information graphically in cubase then it looks ok and shows all the different levels but I hear the juddering between the different openness samples. Squaring off to the level of openness I want without going through the other levels sounds more natural.

    SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors

    MintberryCrunch
    Participant

    @Olle said:

    No. It is in the MIDI in/E-drums settings tab. You select an incomming note, e.g. 46, and then,

    in the Mapping and Response window, assign articulations to CC-zones. I asked around

    and it seems that the maximum is 3 zones and that is probably not enough for you. I think that

    limit may be increased in some future update.

    Thank you for this tip. I’ve checked this option and it would fit perfectly to my demand if CC-zones would be increased (to 8 for all possible hihat stages). PLEASE make this soon available with an update to fit all e-drummers’ needs and stay awesome!

    Can you Toontrackers report something new concerning more (8?!) CC-zones for the mentioned hihat feature?

    MintberryCrunch
    Participant

    No answer regarding such an essential e-drum feature? Hmm, seems that there are still very few software drummers who care about this…

    BTW, are you developers aware of the fact that the CC-hihat in Ableton DrumRack/Sampler (“Session Drums”-packs “Club”, “Multimic”, “Studio”) works with nice crossfades (with adjustable value ranges – these CC value ranges trigger the crossfades) between the open-closed-stages? Next to the fact that CC alone does not trigger samples from different open closed stages (my requested feature) this is in a way again reducing any stuttering artefacts and supports making the transitions nicely smooth. Regarding this feature the Ableton hihat engine is superior to SuperiorDrummer IMO… ?

    Olof Westman
    Forum Crew

    We have a plan to make a substatial update to the MIDI In/E-drums settings tab but it will not be part of the upcomming SD3.1.3 update that will be released soon (Hopefully). So, unfortunately, it will be some time until you will see any improvements for the CC-zone feature.

    Olof Westman - Toontrack
    Coder

    MintberryCrunch
    Participant

    ok, thank you Olof (and team). I’ll be patient and curious… 🙂

    MintberryCrunch
    Participant

    We have a plan to make a substatial update to the MIDI In/E-drums settings tab but it will not be part of the upcomming SD3.1.3 update that will be released soon (Hopefully). So, unfortunately, it will be some time until you will see any improvements for the CC-zone feature.

    So v3.1.5 has passed by and I am patient… Hope you don’t forget this!

    Meanwhile I’ve met several people on internet forums who noticed “strange sounds” when slowly closing the hihat.

    Example from the German DrummerForum: es “gab aber nur diese paar Samples und das gab auch so seltsame Klänge wenn man ein laaaaangsames Schließen simulierte“. Though he speaks of EZDrummer2, SD shows the same issue, and as SD is the flagship it should at least be improved (implemented the requested feature) here!


    Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.1.5
    Operating system: Windows 7

    1

    Thanked by: Shen G
Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 24 total)

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