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I’m a software drummer and I really love SuperiorDrummer. But unfortunately there is one thing annoying me and that is the variable hihat set up to many open-closed-stages (ok, you might say: reduce the stages – but sometimes I want them!) :
When I close an open stroke by a relatively slow foot movment I notice that the closer articulations are triggered by the increasing CC values over the course of the process of closing.
This hihat behaviour sometimes leads to jittery artefacts! Noticeable more or less: depends on the hihat model and the sound-settings and of course on the foot movements. And according to which samples of the round-robin engine take effect: noticable on my audio file with 2 sequences of events triggered by the same midi data: the events at position X do not sound the same regarding the jittery or shaky amount.
On the one hand the TT hihat engine really is the attempt to make the variable hihat behave like its natural example (the hihat of BFD, AD,… is not authentical in this aspect but I often prefer this way for e-drumming because it does not sound shaky after all). But on the other hand this can leads to problems and I think many other drum sampler manufacturers decided not to go this way: e.g. the engines of BFD, Addictive Drums, Ableton Drum Packs do not work like yours regarding this aspect.
So why on earth don’t you (Toontrack) offer an option for the hihat engine preventing that after an open stroke closer stages are triggered by foot movement?
Please implement this!!! Thank you.
https://workupload.com/file/6vK9p8tx : 2 sequences from the first NewYorkAvatar-Hihat, Overhead-Channel on Solo
https://workupload.com/file/kPsvMxFf : the midi data triggering both sequences
(Due to file size only the midi file could be uploaded here as an attachment. The audio file is available by the link )
Hi,
without having your SD3 Project and just looking at your MIDI file, I’m guessing you are not using the Trig scheme intended for opening and closing the HH via CC messages.
You are triggering the ‘Open 2’ articulation directly, not one of the ‘Trig’ notes, right?
Do you have a module attached and do you have a MIDI In/E-drums mapping Preset active?
BR,
John
John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
“You are triggering the ‘Open 2’ articulation directly, not one of the ‘Trig’ notes, right?”
“Do you have a module attached and do you have a MIDI In/E-drums mapping Preset active?”
I use the Roland TD9 Preset so A#1 is the TipTrig articulation.
“I’m guessing you are not using the Trig scheme intended for opening and closing the HH via CC messages.”
Of course my CC messages are triggering the different open closed stages: why else would I achieve such a sound???
The issue is quite old: I already complained in 2014 on SD2 : https://www.toontrack.com/forum/superior-drummer-2-help/closing-variable-hihat-sounds-more-or-less-shaky/
The answer back then was the invitation to edit the CC curve but as I already said: “(ok, you might say: reduce the stages – but sometimes I want them!)”
If you still don’t know what I mean please compare the hihat CC reaction with AddictiveDrums or BFD – then you’ll easily learn the difference. And as I mentioned the variable hihat in these samplers does not react authentically [-> a max open stroke is only altered (muted) by the pedal articulation; increasing CC values (= relatively slow foot movement towards the closed position) won’t affect its release time!] BUT when playing e-drums I often prefer this behaviour because there won’t be any shaky or jittery sound.
There is a new feature in SD3 that allows the user to construct a CC controlled switch
of their own. It is mostly intended for positional triggering of cymbals but it could
probably be used in your situation too.
Olof Westman - Toontrack
Coder
@Olle said:
There is a new feature in SD3 that allows the user to construct a CC controlled switch
of their own. It is mostly intended for positional triggering of cymbals but it could
probably be used in your situation too.
Are you talking about the “Hi-Hat Pedal Control” with its slider points? Then I cannot see this is in any context of my claim…sorry.
Dear developers at TT, please ask yourself why nearly all other manufacturers of drum sampler software implement that different variable hihat reaction.
>Are you talking about the “Hi-Hat Pedal Control” with its slider points? Then I cannot see this is in any context of my claim…sorry.
No. It is in the MIDI in/E-drums settings tab. You select an incomming note, e.g. 46, and then,
in the Mapping and Response window, assign articulations to CC-zones. I asked around
and it seems that the maximum is 3 zones and that is probably not enough for you. I think that
limit may be increased in some future update.
>Dear developers at TT, please ask yourself why nearly all other manufacturers of drum sampler software implement that different variable hihat reaction.Wink
Because they can’t do what we do, mainly because they use diskstreaming.
Our CC-hihats, on the other hand, are not implemented in the samplers but
in the soundlibraries. Some sound expansions may have exactly the kind of CC-hihat
you are after, if that suits the sounds, e.g. electronic sounds. Some just don’t
have any CC-hihat support at all. Unfortunately this means that changing
between different kinds of CC-support is a non-trivial exercise.
Olof Westman - Toontrack
Coder
>No. It is in the MIDI in/E-drums settings tab. You select an incomming note, e.g. 46, and then,
in the Mapping and Response window, assign articulations to CC-zones. I asked around
and it seems that the maximum is 3 zones and that is probably not enough for you. I think that
limit may be increased in some future update.
Ok, you mean that kind of PositionalSensing feature? I’ll check this out. But remember: a high detailed hihat has 8 open closed stages…
>Our CC-hihats, on the other hand, are not implemented in the samplers but
in the soundlibraries. Some sound expansions may have exactly the kind of CC-hihat
you are after, if that suits the sounds, e.g. electronic sounds.
Come on, you shall know what kind of hihats I mean (“the variable hihat set up to many open-closed-stages” (from my first post)): the high detailed ones, otherwise my claim does not make any sense
>Because they can’t do what we do, mainly because they use diskstreaming.
AddictiveDrums uses diskstreaming??? And what does this have to do with diskstreaming??
I really appreciate the SD hihat in its current state (as it is most authentical despite these “artefacts”) and I know you guys do a fantastic job and I really am a TT fanboy (as a drum teacher I always recommend TT software to my students) but can’t you realize that software drummers should have a choice to also get the CC hihat the way I’m after? Listen to my sound file if you still ask why
@Olle said:
No. It is in the MIDI in/E-drums settings tab. You select an incomming note, e.g. 46, and then,
in the Mapping and Response window, assign articulations to CC-zones. I asked around
and it seems that the maximum is 3 zones and that is probably not enough for you. I think that
limit may be increased in some future update.
Thank you for this tip. I’ve checked this option and it would fit perfectly to my demand if CC-zones would be increased (to 8 for all possible hihat stages). PLEASE make this soon available with an update to fit all e-drummers’ needs and stay awesome!
I must admit I agree with you on this. I struggle with the shift between and get the stuttering. It’s not too bad when playing but stands out when recording. I find I have to manually edit the controller information to make it sound natural. The idea is good but I got better results with SD2. I still think this needs a bit more work on it to make it more natural.
SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors
The edits I make basically square off the cc information at the openness I want it. If I look at the cc information graphically in cubase then it looks ok and shows all the different levels but I hear the juddering between the different openness samples. Squaring off to the level of openness I want without going through the other levels sounds more natural.
SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors
@Olle said:
No. It is in the MIDI in/E-drums settings tab. You select an incomming note, e.g. 46, and then,
in the Mapping and Response window, assign articulations to CC-zones. I asked around
and it seems that the maximum is 3 zones and that is probably not enough for you. I think that
limit may be increased in some future update.
Thank you for this tip. I’ve checked this option and it would fit perfectly to my demand if CC-zones would be increased (to 8 for all possible hihat stages). PLEASE make this soon available with an update to fit all e-drummers’ needs and stay awesome!
Can you Toontrackers report something new concerning more (8?!) CC-zones for the mentioned hihat feature?
No answer regarding such an essential e-drum feature? Hmm, seems that there are still very few software drummers who care about this…
BTW, are you developers aware of the fact that the CC-hihat in Ableton DrumRack/Sampler (“Session Drums”-packs “Club”, “Multimic”, “Studio”) works with nice crossfades (with adjustable value ranges – these CC value ranges trigger the crossfades) between the open-closed-stages? Next to the fact that CC alone does not trigger samples from different open closed stages (my requested feature) this is in a way again reducing any stuttering artefacts and supports making the transitions nicely smooth. Regarding this feature the Ableton hihat engine is superior to SuperiorDrummer IMO… ?
We have a plan to make a substatial update to the MIDI In/E-drums settings tab but it will not be part of the upcomming SD3.1.3 update that will be released soon (Hopefully). So, unfortunately, it will be some time until you will see any improvements for the CC-zone feature.
Olof Westman - Toontrack
Coder
“We have a plan to make a substatial update to the MIDI In/E-drums settings tab but it will not be part of the upcomming SD3.1.3 update that will be released soon (Hopefully). So, unfortunately, it will be some time until you will see any improvements for the CC-zone feature.“
So v3.1.5 has passed by and I am patient… Hope you don’t forget this!
Meanwhile I’ve met several people on internet forums who noticed “strange sounds” when slowly closing the hihat.
Example from the German DrummerForum: es “gab aber nur diese paar Samples und das gab auch so seltsame Klänge wenn man ein laaaaangsames Schließen simulierte“. Though he speaks of EZDrummer2, SD shows the same issue, and as SD is the flagship it should at least be improved (implemented the requested feature) here!
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Thanked by: Shen GNo products in the cart.
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