JorgHi,
I recently got the new roland td-27 and I’m using it to trigger SD3 standalone, I chose the TD-50 preset in the midi in/edrums setting and everything works fine but the hihat, I’m using the VH-10 and when doing fast chicks the hihat triggers also open notes creating a sound all over the place, like a splash, but the intended chick, I made a couple of videos to demonstrate this, where or to whom can I send them? Slow chicks work ok, still a bit of a strange sound but manageable, the problem is doing 8th note chicks. I’ve checked the midi monitor and it seems to trigger a couple of open edge articulations when doing fast “pedal closed” as it is called in SD3, this issue is more pronounced with the Decades SDX, in the stock SD3 is less apparent.
I remember that in another VST one could change the time in miliseconds to trigger a splash sound to avoid triggering splash sounds when quickly pressing the pedal, I can’t seem to find a setting like this in SD3, I’ve played with all the curve presets but it doesn’t fix the issue, I’ve calibrated the hihat also a couple of times manually using the hihat pedal tab but nothing.
I uploaded the short videos here: https://1drv.ms/f/s!Apbbfhss1Va_gdpC0Vb6I79Qt_J7zg
Hi,
I recently got the new roland td-27 and I’m using it to trigger SD3 standalone, I chose the TD-50 preset in the midi in/edrums setting and everything works fine but the hihat, I’m using the VH-10 and when doing fast chicks the hihat triggers also open notes creating a sound all over the place, like a splash, but the intended chick, I made a couple of videos to demonstrate this, where or to whom can I send them? Slow chicks work ok, still a bit of a strange sound but manageable, the problem is doing 8th note chicks. I’ve checked the midi monitor and it seems to trigger a couple of open edge articulations when doing fast “pedal closed” as it is called in SD3, this issue is more pronounced with the Decades SDX, in the stock SD3 is less apparent.
I remember that in another VST one could change the time in miliseconds to trigger a splash sound to avoid triggering splash sounds when quickly pressing the pedal, I can’t seem to find a setting like this in SD3, I’ve played with all the curve presets but it doesn’t fix the issue, I’ve calibrated the hihat also a couple of times manually using the hihat pedal tab but nothing.
I uploaded the short videos here: https://1drv.ms/f/s!Apbbfhss1Va_gdpC0Vb6I79Qt_J7zg
MintberryCrunch
aigleHello,
@Jorg, @developper : I’ve got exactly the same issue, is there a workaround for this case excepting “turn off open pedal” ?
@MintberryCrunch : I didn’t understand how work the workaround ?
Please find here my email : sylvainby@hotmail.fr
Thank you!
Jason CroftI am also interested in learning about the work around. I am purchasing the VAD506 kit with the TD27 and was hoping there would be a fix for the HH triggering issue I’ve been reading about. I am thinking about upgrading to the VH13 hats, but I’m not sure if that has any impact on anything.
Thank you tons!
MintberryCrunchHere comes the answer to such hihat issues!
Here is an additional explanation on this:
Toontrack Variable Hihat –> “stepping”: unwanted open sound FIX
The Toontrack Hihat Engine along with the MIDI output from e.g. Roland modules is ineligible for “stepping” (= fast and continuously played pedal notes). The same operating principle which provides “hihat splashes” will add unwanted open-(pedal-) sound when playing “stepping” hihat lines.
My workaround* provides the ability to swap the hihat engine while playing (e.g. per pad stroke) : if you want to produce “hihat splashes” you’ll have to choose the original “Toontrack” engine ; if you want to play the “stepping” you’ll have to switch to my hihat engine which won’t allow transitions triggered by sheer hihat controller data.
My hihat engine part is individually settable to achieve any controller translation possible and therefore will match one-to-one with the set translation in e.g. Superior Drummer3. 🙂
*system requirements: Host DAW: “Cubase (Artist or Pro)” or “Ableton Live (Suite)” or “Bidule” (Bidule is the most affordable (95$), you can try the Demo versions of all mentioned hosts for free)
Todd HellerIt sounds to me like perhaps your up stroke is triggering your tip trigger or one of the bell triggers. Loading the TD-50 preset probably defaults to the VH-13 hat settings, the VH-10 doesn’t have a bell trigger or pressure sensing so SD3 may be having trouble mapping the stray triggers. Id try a different preset or re map the hi hat manually. Or your clutch is physically loose and causing a re-trigger, wild ques! Press down and let up quick and see what instrument is triggering. I had a similar issue where I had a cymbal crash triggering with the heel splash technique. I had to find out where the stray midi signal was coming from and send it to something that made more sense to my ears IE “Hi Hat Edge Open 4”. I am sure you can find the result you want, it just may take time. There is a velocity gate setting somewhere that will cut out the quietest hits but if you gate the bow you may loose dynamics or drop softer strikes from the bow. Good Luck! I hope some of this is helpful.
Jason CroftI was considering just getting the VH13 hats to use with the TD27 anyways. Wondering if that would provide a smoother experience overall with SD3.
Todd HellerI would go to Roland’s web site and make sure the VH-13 is compatible with your module. You can do some crazy if you really need to but ist a lot of $$$ to find out that only two zones will work. I use the Alesis Strike module and I had all the drama with their original moving hat. Most of my problems came from the physical trigger in the top hat pad itself. I could get the software to work fine for all of my open closed sounds but the trigger performance was just terrible. I ended up buying a VH-12 which they said wouldn’t work, which it didn’t unless the offset was set above 85. Then it all came to life; however, I lost the higher end of the open sounds, so it was like playing an acoustic hat with the cymbals set very close together. Not terrible but not what I wanted. Finally I used the Alesis bottom Hat and variable controller (which always worked okay for me) with the VH-12 Top cymbal trigger and HOLY CRAP. It works great!
Bottom Line… If you are willing to experiment a little anything is possible.
Jason CroftThanks. I downloaded the manual for the TD-27 and it shows that it’s compatible with the VH13 and has the settings for it.
MintberryCrunchIt sounds to me like perhaps your up stroke is triggering your tip trigger or one of the bell triggers….I am sure you can find the result you want, it just may take time. There is a velocity gate setting somewhere that will cut out the quietest hits but if you gate the bow you may loose dynamics or drop softer strikes from the bow. Good Luck!
It has nothing to do with any articulations other than the pedal note along with CC data. Roland modules do not send something different than this when playing the pedal “stepping”* .
Also, a velocity gate makes no sense in this regard.
Remember: we want to hold up these two aspects: 1. Pedal Splashes and 2. “Stepping” without open artefacts 😉
Have you seen the vid posted by the OP?
EDIT: I’m not talking about “crosstalk” tip articulation notes which of course can occur when playing (“stepping”) a VHx on hihat stand. 😉
DutchDoctorI’m interested in your work on this. Unfortunately I am a Reaper user so I will have to find my own workaround.
So you think there’s a pedal note being sent as well as the CC? Which is causing a retrigging of samples and creating the “stepped” sound? I’ll have a play around with my CC settings in SD3.
From my testing, it doesn’t matter whether you are gradually opening or closing the hats, if you strike it semi open and let the sample ring for a moment, then raise the HH to the next heigh of “open”, the sample will cut and slam straight into the next layer with no crossfade or transition.
This happens even without the Roland module and just drawing a straight CC automation line in the DAW instead.
Are you saying there’s an extra MIDI note alongside the CC value being sent to SD3 that’s causing this?
I don’t want to lose the pedal note “Chink” completely, but I’m happy to lose HH splash.
Not sure if that’s possible via manipulating SD3 or filtering the MIDI data hitting SD3?
Cheers.
DutchDoctorSo I’ve been playing around with Reaper and I think I’m coming to the same conclusion you have.
When using Hi-Hat Tip or Edge stick MIDI notes only, the Hats CC responds as you’d expect. Smooth and subtle.
When using the MIDI note for “closed pedal”, it triggers those ugly sample transitions we’re all hearing. (On the Roland TD50 preset this is MIDI note 21.
It seems the Roland Module is sending HiHat Closed Notes when moving the control pedal slowly, causing SD3 to retrigger samples incorrectly. I will play around with trying to filter out these notes without losing the closed “chink” sound if I can in Reaper. I would imagine SD3 are able to patch in some sort of filter or condition into the Roland presets that work around this issue natively though.
Toon Track take note of this thread! Many people have had this problem and this thread is where we’re starting to figure it out.
SD3 needs to filter the extra Roland module HH Closed Notes from triggering at the wrong time.
Cheers.
1
Thanked by: zenwarlordMintberryCrunchIt seems the Roland Module is sending HiHat Closed Notes when moving the control pedal slowly, causing SD3 to retrigger samples incorrectly.
No. It’s very simple and described in posts #2566484 and #2566912 :
” It has nothing to do with any articulations other than the pedal note along with CC data. Roland modules do not send anything different than this when playing the pedal “stepping” ”
“The same operating principle which provides “hihat splashes” will add unwanted open-(pedal-) sound when playing “stepping” hihat lines.”
You will also eliminate unwanted trasitions from open to closed when using that (my) engine: a Variable Hihat engine what ignores sheer CC.
Generally speaking, the “hard” transitions will allways be there. The TT hihat engine featured its principle of function since it was founded. There are no drum samplers on the market that can or will smoothen them (the only exception is the CC-hihat in “AbletonLive DrumRack/Sampler” (i.e. “Session Drums”-packs “Club”, “Multimic”, “Studio”)) because of adjustable crossfade CC value ranges (on the other hand there are different minor issues with that AL hihat engine, such as a long ringing open hit won’t be affected by a more closed hit and rings until the sample ends (unless muted by a pedal note)).
The only chance: make these “hard” transitions not annoy you by using a hihat engine workaround built in a suitable DAW that will only affect a single fading open hit by the pedal note or by max closed pedal position (my engine will also provide the last-mentioned aspect as Roland modules do not send pedal notes when closing the hihat quite softly) ;). You can try building your own fix but I can tell you building that Variable Hihat fix which is able to work properly and consistently is not that easy!
You can of course avoid the open artifacts when playing the fast “stepping” by simply deleting the “Open pedal” articulation. This will work for players who can go without pedal splashes BUT without my workaround engine the transition artifacts mentioned will still be there! 😉
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Thanked by: DutchDoctorDutchDoctorThankyou, I think I’ve finally gotten my head around the problem. I don’t ever need the fully open HH sound so I have removed the articulation completely and adjusted the threshold and gotten to a place where I’m pretty happy with the sound. The transition sounds still aren’t always perfect. But I think I’ll be able to comfortably edit the HH pedal CC automation in post to make it as smooth as possible for production.
Even on an acoustic kit I always offset the balance of the hats to always touch at least a little bit for sizzle anyway. So this works for my playing style. I’m interested in how you’ve built your workaround still, Reaper has some very powerful MIDI filtering and modifiying programming tools that could probably be implemented to get a similar effect.
So are you actually ADDING pedal notes when moving the HH CC slowly?
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