Roland TD-27 VH-10 Hi-Hat strange behavior when doing fast pedal closed

[Jorg]

Hi,

I recently got the new roland td-27 and I’m using it to trigger SD3 standalone, I chose the TD-50 preset in the midi in/edrums setting and everything works fine but the hihat, I’m using the VH-10 and when doing fast chicks the hihat triggers also open notes creating a sound all over the place, like a splash, but the intended chick, I made a couple of videos to demonstrate this, where or to whom can I send them? Slow chicks work ok, still a bit of a strange sound but manageable, the problem is doing 8th note chicks. I’ve checked the midi monitor and it seems to trigger a couple of open edge articulations when doing fast “pedal closed” as it is called in SD3, this issue is more pronounced with the Decades SDX, in the stock SD3 is less apparent.

I remember that in another VST one could change the time in miliseconds to trigger a splash sound to avoid triggering splash sounds when quickly pressing the pedal, I can’t seem to find a setting like this in SD3, I’ve played with all the curve presets but it doesn’t fix the issue, I’ve calibrated the hihat also a couple of times manually using the hihat pedal tab but nothing.

I uploaded the short videos here: https://1drv.ms/f/s!Apbbfhss1Va_gdpC0Vb6I79Qt_J7zg

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.1.6
Operating system: macOS Catalina (10.15)

Topic

[Jorg]

No one? Basically the open articulations are also triggered when closing the pedal fast.

[Jorg]

Still struggling with the Hihat, tried many things to no avail, still triggering open sounds when doing fast chicks…

[Jorg]

The only solution is to turn off the „open pedal“ articulation. But then I have no splash sounds.

[Mark King]

It sounds like there is very little experience with the td27 and vh10. Do check that the full range of cc is being sent as that was a problem with the vh11 where the module was set to 90 and not 127

SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors

[Jorg]

Mark King wrote:

It sounds like there is very little experience with the td27 and vh10. Do check that the full range of cc is being sent as that was a problem with the vh11 where the module was set to 90 and not 127

the TD-27 supports sending HH cc 90 or 127, I’ve tried both, recalibrated it using the hihat calibration, but still the same

[mickg]

I don’t have any experience with the Roland HH. However I’m wondering if you somehow are triggering the HH cymbal itself, since there is a mechanical connection between the pedal and the cymbal pads. Can you unplug the hats cymbal trigger while still leaving the pedal footboard connected? This is so you can still trigger the pedal samples while isolating it from the cymbal pad. If that “fixes” the problem then there is a triggering problem with the pads and not with the pedal. If that is the case, the next thing I would check would be the pad sensitivity. Maybe it’s way too sensitive. Next I would check the physical connection between the top cymbal pad and the cymbal clamp (the part that is normally made of a top and bottom piece of felt. If that is clanging against the pad on opening and closing, maybe that is triggering the edge samples. Did you try playing fast, but lightly? Curious if there is a difference in height of your foot as you play faster.

This is all I can come up without more knowledge of the Roland HH, but I suspect it’s more mechanical than software related. Although it could be a combination of both.

Let me know if any of this helps.

Mick G

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.1.6
Operating system: macOS Mojave (10.14)

[Jorg]

When I play with the module only, I can play as fast as I want and I get always clean chicks, so it’s not something with the pad itself or the module, it’s more how the midi sent by the module is being seen by Superior and the open pedal articulation, as I mentioned before, I’m using the TD-50 Mapping, can someone with a TD-50 and a VH-11 or 10 check if it shows the same issue?

[jorgo stefani]

Hi,

i have a VH11 and since SuperiorDrummer2 this Chick/Splash – Problem occours.

You have find the only solution – turn off open pedal (how many times u use it?)

 

Greetings from Germany.

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.1.6
Operating system: Windows 10

• This post was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by jorgo stefani.

[Jorg]

Continuing with this, the TD-27 sends the Hi-Hat midi notes attached in the picture, selecting the TD-50 mapping it maps this articulations correctly as seen in the picture 2, however SD3 maps for some reason the open pedal articulation, which is the cause of the issue, to note 23 and the closed pedal to 21,10 and 44.

Roland says in their midi implementation guide:

“■Examples of Actual MIDI Messages

B9 04 5A 99 2C 7F B9 04 2D

9n is the Note-on status, and n is the MIDI channel number. BnH is the Control Change status, and n is the MIDI channel number. Thus, the above messages have the following meaning.
B9 04 5A MIDI ch. 10, foot controller: 5AH
99 2C 7F MIDI ch. 10, Note On message

B9 04 2D MIDI ch. 10, foot controller: 2DH

In other words, with these messages a Note On message with a note number of 44 (G#2) and velocity of 127 is transmitted on MIDI Channel 10, and then the foot controller value is set from 90 to 45.
According to the settings made at the factory, the drum part is assigned to MIDI Channel 10, Note Number 44 is assigned to the pedal hi-hat, and the foot controller is set to Pedal CC; in this case, the TD-27 plays a foot splash when the message is received.”

So there should be a way for SD3 to interpret a quick closing of the pedal always as a chick sound instead of mistriggering open pedal articulations, how, well, I’m not the expert here…. let’s say “if pedal closed is greater than 5 miliseconds trigger closed pedal, else trigger splash” or something like that.

[Jorg]

I just checked the midi implementation for the TD-50 and it says:

“*Examples of Actual MIDI Messages

99 2C 7F B9 04 7F 04 40

9n is the Note-on status, and n is the MIDI channel number. BnH is the Control Change status, and n is the MIDI channel number. Thus, the above messages have the following meaning.
99 2C 7F
B9 04 7F
(B9) 04 40
In other words, with these messages a Note On message with a note number of
44 (G#2) and velocity of 127 is transmitted on MIDI Channel 10, and then the foot controller value is set from 127 to 64.
According to the settings made at the factory, the drum part is assigned to MIDI Channel 10, Note Number 44 is assigned to the pedal hi-hat, and the foot controller is set to Pedal CC; in this case, the TD-50 plays a foot splash when the message is received.”

The only difference with the TD-27 is “and then the foot controller value is set from 127 to 64” which says “and then the foot controller value is set from 90 to 45”. This could be useful to implement a TD-27 mapping.

As I mentioned before, the TD-27 allows the user to change the HH border note from 90 to 127, because it supports the roland VH-10, 11, 12 and 13, that’s the first middle range module to support that!. If you only play with the module sounds and use a VH-10, 11 leave it at 90, however if you use a VH-12 or 13 or trigger SD3 you must change it to 127 to have SD3 interpreting the full 0-127 spectrum.

Ideally SD3 would have a setting to choose from different roland hihats, let’s say if I have a VH-10 I would be able to pick it up from the SD3 hihats menu and SD3 would make the necessary settings for you, just dreaming, how cool that’d be?

That’s considering one is using a moving hihat, I’ve heard some use a pedal controller like FD-7 or FD-8 and say it triggers better since there are less moving parts involved. But I won’t consider it since having a moving hihat is essential for me. Some have “modded” an FD7 and put it on a stand and they say it works perfectly but I never seen it action, so…

Ok, enough rambling for today…

[MintberryCrunch]

Here comes the answer to such hihat issues! (as I think you’ll wait for ages for TT e-drumming fixes)

Hello Jorg, I’ve developed a midi workaround within the hosts (Cubase , Bidule , AbletonLive): You can play the variable hihat without SuperiorDrummer processing any CC data! So this will stop the unwanted behavior you describe and it will also stop hihat sound artefacts when slowly closing the pedal as described here. And of course you can customize the variable hihat and determinate the open-(or closed-)stage at any pedal positon (module’s CC input value) and/or skip stages you don’t want…

I’ll share my workaround and will give support for it via internet for a donation. So if you (or anybody else) is interested let me know by replying here.

The Software Drumming Forum - tips & tricks + discussing drum samplers

3

Thanked by: daysDrums, pro audio and mikemullin

[mikemullin]

Hello, I am interested in learning your work around. How do I proceed?

regards,

Mike

mikemullin@ncf.ca

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.1.7
Operating system: macOS Mojave (10.14)

[MintberryCrunch]

Hello Mike, sent you email…

The Software Drumming Forum - tips & tricks + discussing drum samplers

[MintberryCrunch]

Little update of my workaround here:

slowly closing the hihat (without generating a pedal note) will now mute the open sounds from the variable hihat at fully closed pedal position. This is quite important as e.g. Roland modules do not send a pedal note when slowly closing the controller pedal / motion unit… 🙂

The Software Drumming Forum - tips & tricks + discussing drum samplers

[pro audio]

Hello i’m interested too.

[Author]

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