ErazHey there folks,
recently I bought SD3 as a virtual drum addition to my studio. What I really like about it is the realism if you take your time to tweak the midi file, the big choice of different articulations and the nice array of drumsounds already included in the core library. But one thing I feel is missing. I just cannot get it to sound like a drummer which hits the drums really hard. When producing big rock tracks or tracks with metal influences I just feel there is missing something, to a real drum performance with a hard hitting drummer. If SD3 was a real drummer I’d say he should hit everything like 20% harder if you know what I mean, especially for toms, snare and kick. I know you could process the drums further to make them sound “harder” with compression and so on, but that is absolutely not the same. I don’t need a more processed sound, that is done later with mixing. I need the right feel from the raw tracks. Even with all velocities way up to the max, I feel there is missing something. I was working at another studio and worked with SD2 there and did not have the same impression. I think it was the “Avatar Kit” or the “Music City USA Kit”. All 4 core library kits suffer from the same problem. I hope there is just something I am doing wrong, but I tried everything possible with no luck.
Hey there folks,
recently I bought SD3 as a virtual drum addition to my studio. What I really like about it is the realism if you take your time to tweak the midi file, the big choice of different articulations and the nice array of drumsounds already included in the core library. But one thing I feel is missing. I just cannot get it to sound like a drummer which hits the drums really hard. When producing big rock tracks or tracks with metal influences I just feel there is missing something, to a real drum performance with a hard hitting drummer. If SD3 was a real drummer I’d say he should hit everything like 20% harder if you know what I mean, especially for toms, snare and kick. I know you could process the drums further to make them sound “harder” with compression and so on, but that is absolutely not the same. I don’t need a more processed sound, that is done later with mixing. I need the right feel from the raw tracks. Even with all velocities way up to the max, I feel there is missing something. I was working at another studio and worked with SD2 there and did not have the same impression. I think it was the “Avatar Kit” or the “Music City USA Kit”. All 4 core library kits suffer from the same problem. I hope there is just something I am doing wrong, but I tried everything possible with no luck.
Michael KapoulasOk, old thread, but here’s my 2 cents:
If you are using a keyboard controller it is not easy to make SD3 hit hard, Same for SD2.
Scale your midi controller for higher velocities or more dynamics (logic) depending on your controller.
JamesFollowing on from Michael’s pennies let me throw in mine. Turn up the drum channel and add a touch of compression and stop arguing about a full digital midi library which costs less than a snare drum miked up to a mike-pre not sounding the same as that analogue input. Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.
Bear-Faced CowCompression is not a volume knob.
jord
No, but so many people are….
You just saved everyone a ton of typing by proving that in the above post.
Perhaps explaining your use of the compressor  might garner better results. Or, better yet, inquiring as to why compression might not have been as appropriate perhaps adjusting the velocity curves might have gotten you a bit further.
jord
JamesDirecting your conversation in a multi line thread such as this Jord may also garner better results.
Bear-Faced CowConsidering that
Turn up the drum channel and add a touch of compression and stop arguing about a full digital midi library which costs less than a snare drum miked up to a mike-pre not sounding the same as that analogue input.
is not mentioned anywhere else and you instantly replied with a somewhat meaningless and trollish response to mine, I think we both know where my statement was directed, so let’s not be coy.
Now, aside from the fact that use of compression as a part of boosting gain is pretty much a good way to kill a good snare sound when misused, as it is most often by many inexperienced users, there’s a very good reason why the other drum libraries (they’re not midi libraries… that’s something else) are referred to.
And
Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.
Could not be the furthest from the truth of this whole thread. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be clamouring on other threads to get your hands on them.
jord
JamesJord go back and read the OP and then tell me that SD3 and a Yamaha Stage custom birch into a AKG Pro Audio D12VR into Neve console are the same thing….
Bear-Faced CowConsidering that the entire SD3 library was recorded into a Neve 88RS console, what are you trying to say here?
We have read the OP’s post… perhaps you need to re-read and understand the nature of the SD3 Core Library in relation to the everything else we’ve stated before obfuscating the issue here.
jord
monospaceYou can also stack them. No processing required and you can design what you’re looking for.
Bingo. This is what I do when I want to get a heavy sound. It’s kinda counterintuitive because this isn’t something you’d do with an analog kit, but damn if you can’t get some crazy aggressive sounds by stacking.
E-drummer. eDrumIn trigger interface with various Roland trigger pads. MacBook Pro (mid-2015); MacOS High Sierra; Logic Pro X 10.4.8. Superior Drummer user since 2009.
monospaceTotally as an aside: I sometimes get frustrated with the exact opposite: trying to get as soft a sound as possible with SD3. I play edrums, and I always limit snare and toms to around 110 of velocity, because to me, the samples are crazy loud and aggressive above that level, even with an optimized trigger module. Even when you play as softly as possible, the samples are louder than what you would get on a live acoustic set. Ultimately, that’s just a limitation of electronic drums and software, no matter how phenomenal SD3 is. What I do is, I fix it in post.
E-drummer. eDrumIn trigger interface with various Roland trigger pads. MacBook Pro (mid-2015); MacOS High Sierra; Logic Pro X 10.4.8. Superior Drummer user since 2009.
Bear-Faced CowThere are multiple reasons for this from the preset being used to the velocity curve of the kit piece itself to the fact that you are also playing through someone else (you’re not Norman Garschke) recorded in another room through some rather hi-tech recording gear (thus the drums aren’t in the room like an acoustic drums). All of this typically falls under the first rule of using any type of sample, drums or otherwise (knowing the features and limitations of your sample). Thus, plenty of variables. Admittedly, however, being a long time drum programmer, and “finger drummer”, makes my end goals considerably different (something more real in the recorded sense). So, for me, loud and soft matter in the context of the song. Even when I am not rolling my own, I will tend to bend other drummers’ playing to fit the context of the song. It also boils down to which drums are more fit for the song, which makes me grateful for more big time producers weighing in with SDXs. I don’t need to delude myself to be a Bob Rock, Forrester Savill or Eddie Kramer (I so can’t wait for this…it may be the only thing I am able to get this year if I am fortunate). They have done it far better than I believe I ever will.
Bingo. This is what I do when I want to get a heavy sound. It’s kinda counterintuitive because this isn’t something you’d do with an analog kit, but damn if you can’t get some crazy aggressive sounds by stacking.
Again, this is about the production and not whether it is possible on an analog kit. Using this to create a little more crack or add some ring, or to come up with something that just cuts through a song, that’s what it’s more about to me. I have very little shame in using it when I need it, because it’s what serves the song. With a wide selection of kit pieces and an unlimited supply of samples (I have countless DVDs that I have amassed over the past decade), there’s nothing that can’t be created. One of my fave stacking tricks, I picked up from watching a video of Richard Chycki: he brings the click out of a kick by attaching a hi-hat sample.
jord
PanufoNo, he’s quite right. I never used to have quite the same problems, even with GM MIDI kits back in the 90s. When sampling a drum the strokes should range from a whisper to a scream. I’m a recording engineer. I got SD because it’s difficult to record acoustic drums here in the basement compared to sequencing them, but I could always get more attack – BEFORE processing – just by hitting the drum hard enough. These great engineers – Massenberg, etc. – somehow dropped the ball, and it IS disappointing. I know it’s hard to accept that the Big Dogs could make a mistake, but these toms are making it hard to get the sort of sounds I need. If the processing is all I need (and I’ve spent lots of fruitless time trying to compress these toms into something big and bad), please send us your mixer presets that we may be enlightened. Respect. Oh, and I’m also a drummer, and I know what an unprocessed drum CAN sound like.
Bear-Faced CowI also recorded drums for the longest time. Despite not being a drummer (I am a guitarist), I have a lot of friends that are and I recorded their playing. I also had a kit here as well and know very well what unprocessed drums sound like. Enough chest beating…
This said it all to me right there:
and I’ve spent lots of fruitless time trying to compress these toms into something big and bad
As an engineer, you should know compression in an of itself doesn’t make things big and bad… well, actually they make things bad but not in the sense you’re trying to refer to. However, anyone who’s recorded drums knows you get your “bigness” from the room. Yes, you can apply compression to squash the room but if you listen to the track alone it won’t sound big. It only adds to the weight of everything else. But you already know this as an engineer.
As well, did you remove the energy eating lows? Nothing eats the attack and destroys a drum mix more than this. Not to mention adjusting your low and upper mids to bring out your attack. Again, this nothing new to any engineer, and there are plenty of videos from some of the notable engineers illustrating how they mix drums. Even as long as I have done it, I still watch them because I always have something new to learn.
Considering that the core library was recorded with all of its frequencies intact, with all of its headroom intact, that means that all of the stuff I mentioned above are present in the recording which don’t make a drum sound big no matter how hard you hit it. I’ve listened to enough raw captured drum recordings to know. As an engineer, you should be able to understand what was recorded in order to bring out what you need rather than trying to say that Massenburg made a mistake.
Doing any of the above doesn’t mean that Massenburg dropped the ball. And considering that the same drummer has done the Decades, Hansa and Legacy of Rock, along with the core library, I think it’s safe to say that Norm G. knows how to hit a drum. However, the SDXs mentioned are more indicative of the genres they serve. The core library has to serve every genre.
Considering you are the one calling us out saying it can’t be done, how about you post a preset showing us what you got first.
jord
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