Marty HowardHey all,
I’m looking for some advice or tips on mixing. I have Studio One 3 Pro version and am trying to figure out if I should do all my mixing in SD3 and use the stereo file or should I individually bounce the tracks out and mix mostly in Studio One. I’ve done the later more often but it seems like the presets are really good and when I separate them out in loses the integrity of the sound.
Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
BradSo my $.02(CAD) or $.06(MYR)…. With SD2 (and EZD2 to a point) I used to separate the channels out and mix in Studio One, mostly because I have more plug-ins than I know what to do with and because I use them day-to-day on other tracks, there’s more familiarity with them. That being said, with SD3 I found that I’m creating the 90% of the drum mix within the instrument itself with the output going to Studio One as a stereo track. Now I may still do some additional processing on that stereo track, for example I may want to add some “colour/color” or “distortion” to the SD3 track using the same plug-in that I am using on other tracks in order to make them sound as if they were all recorded from the same ‘gear’. Sometimes I split the kick drum ‘SD3 bus’ or ‘SD3 track’ out to a separate channel within Studio One (snare perhaps too depending on the session), if I need to side chain out to another track, for example using a compressor plug-in to duck the bass attack in order for the kick drum to punch through a mix. That’s a specific thing… YMMV.
What you mentioned is quite relevant to the discussion in that the presets sound a certain way, if that’s the sound you are going for then it’s a matter of what you are most comfortable with, what gives you the sound you want and what your host (processor/memory) will handle.
Hope some of this makes sense….
Mac Studio M1 Max, RAM 64 GB, 1TB Drive, OSX 12.x/13.x and Windows 10 (VM)
DAW: Studio One Pro (always up to date)
DTX Express III (Extreme triggers), Nektar LX88
OWC Thunderbay Mini (4 X 1TB Sata SSD), Express 4M2 (4 X 2TB M.2 SSD), Envoy Express (1TB M.2 SSD)
Presonus Quantum, Faderport & Faderport 8
Black Lion Sparrow Mk2 A/D, FMR-RNP-RNC, MIDI Xpress 128, BM5A, KRK VXT4, Equator D5
2020 Macbook Pro 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD Audio(mobile rig)
Marty HowardThanks for the response and the more I’ve played with it the last couple days the more you are confirming what I’m learning.
I’m going to try and buss some things internally in SD3 and push them out to individual tracks in Studio One to see if that can enhance the sound more to my taste.
Mark KingI too have been thinking this way. I don’t like any of the presets although I guess they will work in a mix. What I have noticed is the internal effects work really well and I have started using these over the ones in my DAW. Toontrack have done a great job here.
SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors
GLMLate to an old thread but would like to add some consideration in general on this: If you want to keep it “in a box” sounding which can be helpful for using different DAWs here and there or to make it sound more melted as a complete set you can go with mixing in SD3 for official productions from my experience with no worries. From what I heard the plugins are top for its purpose and even do better for SD3 samples than many other plugins outside SD3, since they have been made for this. I found it more convincing when I tried to simulate a certain drum type of sound inside SD3 than by tackling around with million other plugins outside SD3. Maybe because of the “in the box” thing which is similar to how drums have been regularely recorded often in history (one session, one room, one mic setup to finally put the drum recordings into the song). DAWs tend to make multitrack instuments output in DAW mixer sound random or the single drum sounds “not connected to each other” since many plugins do not fit to each other by concept and overheads and such things can become complex in routing. But sure, there are top notch plugins out there which will always outperform default plugins inside of instruments. But to make them fit “in the box” will take more time and will always be a time consuming tackling which will be hard to reproduce as a template for the next set. For me trying inside will always be first and can always easy be loaded into other soungs. If it isn’t good enough I try to bring more into the DAW stage later then.
Bear-Faced CowThe plug-ins within SD3 can accomplish a certain job, but I wouldn’t call them top-notch. I would go as far as to say that some of the plug-ins are hyped and don’t do what their real world counterparts would. For example, the tape plug-in is more of a “look at me, I am using tape” type of plug-ins, rather than what a real tape machine would sound like, unless you were to overbias, the heads and drive the signal through. If you are looking for an affect like that, then more power to you. However, I am more likely to route channels from SD3 into my DAW and use some of my go-to plug-ins from UAD and Soundtoys in order to get something far more mixworthy. Don’t get me wrong. I will still use plug-ins within SD3 to get a base sound. They still shine in that area. I am more likely to use a combination of effects from SD3 into my DAW. And working in Logic, I can easily set up a track stack routing and save the patches as needed in order to get a complete mix ready setup where I can tweak from there.
I found it more convincing when I tried to simulate a certain drum type of sound inside SD3 than by tackling around with million other plugins outside SD3
You don’t need a bunch of plug-ins to create certain types of drum sounds. If anything, it starts with the proper sound recorded at source. For me, that usually starts with the right SDX before any effects go on it. Once I have the energy, whatever plugins fall into place.
DAWs tend to make multitrack instuments output in DAW mixer sound random or the single drum sounds “not connected to each other” since many plugins do not fit to each other by concept and overheads and such things can become complex in routing.
This is totally false and is more reflective on a user’s lack of familiarity when it comes to mixing. Routing in a DAW is no different than in SD3 and gluing it all together is more the ability of the engineer and not SD3. It is just as easy to make things unglued in SD3.
But sure, there are top notch plugins out there which will always outperform default plugins inside of instruments. But to make them fit “in the box” will take more time and will always be a time consuming tackling which will be hard to reproduce as a template for the next set.
Then get a more capable DAW and learn its power features. As mentioned previous, Logic has track stacking features which allow me to save an entire routing in a single patch, and recall it is a single click in the next mix. Nothing time-consuming there and certain not hard to implement. All of my buss/aux routings are in place and once I set the balances correctly, I can then control the stems via its main aux routing.
Everyone is going to have their own methodology when it comes to mixing. Regardless of how you do it, the main goal is to serve the song and never the DAW or plugins.
Jord
GLMWell, sorry to say that, but I can’t agree less. Just to pick 1,2 topics you hit. First of all the complain about the “tape saturation” plugin. Well, they are all very different in the way how they try to achieve a certain distortion which hasn’t more or less, most likely nothing to do with real tape saturation but with a certain harmonic and dynamic distortion you can agree with or not. All depends on your needs. Especially for drums the one in SD3 can be useful, even if very different to other 3rd party ones, depending on what you look for. All these tools have their “names” but finally you have to use your ears to find the proper tool for the proper job. So the same for “tape saturation” simulation plugins and for any other plugin simulating a certain piece of gear. On the end all is a simulation.
Apart from that special plugin there is this one thing about all audio plugins I often teach in my classes to stop that hype and confusion regarding the millions of plugin manufacturers out there. And I know what I am talking about since we developed our own plugins for our studios. On the end there is no “magic” behind. It’s all computer code and a question of the flavour you want or need. And rarely an overfhyped expensive plugin simulating a certain gear wasn’t able to be reproduced with on board plugins from DAWs or elsewhere. Therefor I run a regular bet on school with my students and they have to blind test every overhyped plugin they bring me, which I reproduce for them with simple default mixing plugins. I remember how they all have been so impressed by the MAAG simulation until I showed them what it actually and simply does. And most of a professional mixing job you can do with in board plugins of a professional DAW. No extra tools needed. And from what I know the developers of the audio plugins in the SD3 mixer have well kown and good quality reputation as plugin developers. So maybe you have used the plugins not in the proper way. As most of the time: the issue is not the DAW, not the plugin, nor the computer. Mostly it is the one in front of all that.
Next topic you touched regarding mixing: all top level DAWs have that routing and saving features you mentioned. In Pro Tools – which I/we use in all our studios in Europe since it is the industry standard to cooperate with other studios – you can save your track or session templates in any way you want. All the possibilities in that way should be known by a professional, but they should be used with wisdom and for the right moment. As a one man show – like you maybe work – it is fine to do it like you do it, but for bigger productions it is not always the best way. A personal and very individual routing can become a mess in a cooperation work flow easely. And my recommendation was not exclusive regarding in board mixing. It was one of many ways, where I tried to show off some considerations to make, but only for certain goals, like mentioned.
Last but not least what you sad about choosing the right drums. It is funny that many drummers and drum mixing enginers exactly say the opposite from yours: That it mostly doesn’t matter that much which drums or manufacturer you choose but how you use them, how you play them and finally mix them to achieve a certain sound. And after over 30 years studio experience I more than tend to agree. Even if I definitely have my favourites. Especially regarding the weight of cymbals and snares in combination with the base drum. But on the end, I am sure, I would be able to tweak any set to the goal. Not to be misunderstood (again). Of course they do sound different. But the options which have been established by Drum tools like BFD and SD3 do make the users of that tools tend to think it is all about choosing between 8 sets to come close to what they want. The truth is in fact rarely – and even very big – studios have 8 sets or more to choose from. And often drummers bring their own sets they prefer to play. And on the end the tweaks, play and mix have to bring it to the wanted direction. Especially a well made choice regarding the chaining with mixing tools and the “shaping” of the drums.
Bear-Faced CowAnd I know what I am talking about since we developed our own plugins for our studios
I am going to have fun throwing this into the fire. Please, tell me what you have developed and how it was developed. Please refrain from using terms such as “you wouldn’t understand.“
On the end there is no “magic” behind. It’s all computer code and a question of the flavour you want or need.
This is a very kindergarten statement, not only to DSP programming, but to programming in general. There is a major difference between a developer with programming knowledge who writes some thing using DSP formulas they derived from a book and a developer who has the actual understanding of the “whys“ for using them. With some simple, DSP math, I can re-create a sawtooth, oscillator and ladder filter. However, this does not mean that I have the understanding of how a MiniMoog Model D works.
First of all the complain about the “tape saturation” plugin. Well, they are all very different in the way how they try to achieve a certain distortion which hasn’t more or less, most likely nothing to do with real tape saturation but with a certain harmonic and dynamic distortion you can agree with or not.
Let me ask you this question: what are the components of tape?
All these tools have their “names” but finally you have to use your ears to find the proper tool for the proper job. So the same for “tape saturation” simulation plugins and for any other plugin simulating a certain piece of gear. On the end all is a simulation.
I am reading a lack of discernment between the difference of simulation versus emulation. Just because something simulates tape saturation, it in no way is an indication that it is emulating it. Simulating tape saturation only means that it will sound like tape saturation. However, that in no way means that this is how a tape machine works. That is what it boils down to. the vast majority of tape plug-ins are way overhyped. They have that “look at me… I am using tape“ type of effect. They do not adhere to the concepts of tape, especially in a multi track situation. This is highly important when it comes to mixing. Attempting to dismiss this would be an admission that one has never fully understood tape, and possibly did not play with it in depth.
And rarely an overfhyped expensive plugin simulating a certain gear wasn’t able to be reproduced with on board plugins from DAWs or elsewhere.
Again, the lack of discernment between simulation emulation is shown here. Yes, I have been able to re-create various types of affects, including tape using components. Some of them were even used by major software developers as part of their presets back in the day. Did they simulate tape? From all of the feedback that I got from various users, yes. Did they emulate tape? No. And the main reason is that you cannot emulate gear this way. this type of approach is nothing short of MacGyvering.
I remember how they all have been so impressed by the MAAG simulation until I showed them what it actually and simply does
Did you actually compare it to a MAAG equalizer? I’m willing to bet no. There are people will buy certain plug-ins based on what they know about the hardware itself.
And most of a professional mixing job you can do with in board plugins of a professional DAW. No extra tools needed. And from what I know the developers of the audio plugins in the SD3 mixer have well kown and good quality reputation as plugin developers. So maybe you have used the plugins not in the proper way. As most of the time: the issue is not the DAW, not the plugin, nor the computer. Mostly it is the one in front of all that.
we aren’t talking about mixing. We are talking about hardware emulation. That has nothing to do with PEBCAK. Trying to tell me that I am using a plug-in incorrectly is nothing more than a Steve Jobs-like statement when he was telling people that they were holding the iPhone 4 wrong. I think after 45 years of having my fingers on a mixing board, I have a handle of how and why a plug-in works, or doesn’t. Trying to pass things off as PEBKAC is really nothing more than misinformed and carries no weight. I know very well what plug-in within SD3 are useful and why. I don’t base my answers on, “from what I know the developers of audio plugins…” Your statements combined with a perceieved lack of discernment make me question more of what you know.
All the possibilities in that way should be known by a professional, but they should be used with wisdom and for the right moment. As a one man show – like you maybe work – it is fine to do it like you do it, but for bigger productions it is not always the best way. A personal and very individual routing can become a mess in a cooperation work flow easely. And my recommendation was not exclusive regarding in board mixing. It was one of many ways, where I tried to show off some considerations to make, but only for certain goals, like mentioned.
Again wrong. Every engineer that I have had the pleasure of knowing uses templates, patch, routings, and presets, as jumping off points in their mix. The engineers that I know often have more than one job lined up, and time is of the essence. Being able to organize your tracks and call up routings within your DAW (BTW, there is no industry standard – that playing field was levelled last decade) in the name of getting into mixing is paramount with them. Saying otherwise is nothing more than creating work.
Last but not least what you sad about choosing the right drums. It is funny that many drummers and drum mixing enginers exactly say the opposite from yours: That it mostly doesn’t matter that much which drums or manufacturer you choose but how you use them, how you play them and finally mix them to achieve a certain sound. And after over 30 years studio experience I more than tend to agree.
Little problem with your 30 years and your tendency to agree is that we are not talking about recording drums. We are talking about recorded drums. More to the point we are talking about recorded drums by various producers. Yes, in an actual recording situation it would be up to the drummer as far as the kit goes, and the producer, as far as recording goes. In the case of SD3, the drums are already recorded. So yes, choosing which kit pieces you want in the context of a song matters. This will determine the energy that is imported within a song. This would have been taken care of by the producer that recorded the drums. No two producers are alike. There is a huge reason why I would choose, a kit recorded by Bob Rock in a certain song as opposed to Eddie Kramer. The reverse also applies. Considering that they were recorded by different producers in different studios through different gear, using a different techniques, that will make a huge difference on the music. Trying to tell me that it doesn’t matter and you can get this in the mix is really nothing more than turd polishing. We’re talking simple pre-production that is along the lines of choosing a certain guitar amp and micing it up. Perhaps you have heard the concept that if you record something like a song, it will sound like a song in the mix.
jord
GLMOh Dear Mr. Chilcott, please, calm down. You react to my reply like if you feel offended. I didn’t wanted to offend anyone nor do I stated or meant some of the things in the way you partly interpreted them or how you counter argue on them. And there is no reason to become rude or offensive from your side or put somebody personally in doubt. That’s not a well made nor kind of discussing things. It does cost too much time and energy for both of us and has – like often in message boards – finally nothing to do with the OT no more when it goes on. I could chime in here and there again where you took my words wrong or did not catched my considerations the right way and can point to your and mine biased opinions. But it becomes more and more unhealthy in the way the personal statements go and it doesn’t matter for you nor for me.
Since my basic attitude is that “I know nothing and I can learn on every day, no matter how long I am on earth” I am not willing to put energy to convince anyone here from the opposite nor from any things in doubt nor will I count parts of my studer or whatever to show off that I know how tape and tape machines are build. You _can_ take my words the right way or not. If you ask me, that is actually far more kindergarten. But does not let us start again on this. All I know is why I sad what I sad and from where it came from, reasonably. Oh and by the way (side note): I am not a native tongue, so in case I mix words up like simulation or emulation, etc. in a rush, so please consider that we discuss in a language barrier where we talk in YOUR language, not in mine. Not to mention my sleepover for days. So I will opt out here and hope you are well. Finally, all the best —
Bear-Faced CowThere was no offense taken in the message. I simply answered your disagreement and did it with a smile. You put up a challenge and I answered it. I presented some factual examples and presented a factual question based on your disagreements. If you can’t answer it, that’s fine. However, don’t it on anyone else. Just because you don’t like my answers doesn’t make it rude or offensive. And if you are going to claim that you are offended, know that facts have nothing to do with your feelings.
Seriously, the above response is nothing more than a diversion. Using language and everything else is really an excuse in this case.
I was coming back to this to rephrase my tape question, however. I don’t care about the parts in your Studer. I was more referring to the four main characteristics of tape. This is always my basis behind my choosing and using the tape emulation plug-ins I do and the answers above.
I’ll leave it there…
jord
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