Rev2010So I have a question. I noticed that most of the SD3 presets with killer metal kicks all seem to have an added instrument preset in the stack such as “Meat Kick” or “Nocturnal Kick”. However, these samples appear to be single samples, there are no variances or multisampling in them. As a result their use typically leads to a horribly artificial sounding kick that is also plagued with machine gunning when doing double bass rolls. I’m curious as to why this was done this way instead of simply EQ’ing the kicks in the way the samples were made to create those fat kick samples originally. This way the realism would be retained.
That said, does anyone know the origin of the meat kick sample? – such as the drum used and EQ settings? I’ve managed to somewhat emulate it using some pretty strong EQ’ing but would love to see how it was originally designed. For now, I’ve found a good way to make it fit in better and lessen the artificial sound it gives by changing the “Soft Hits” setting to it’s lowest -24.0db and lowering its level in the stack. This works very well, though I’d kinda still like to eliminate it from the stack to remove any trace of the machine gunning.
By the way, this doesn’t just pertain to the kick. I’ve seen the same thing with many snares, that added layer to make a real killer snare but yet the sample added to the stack is a single sample and suffers just the same.
Bear-Faced CowThe only reason you’d be experiencing machine gun effect is because you’re simply adding the sample into the stack and leaving it at a single volume. In the real world, you would be varying the volume of the layered sample (assuming you are doing drum replacement old school, which a lot of producers do) in conjunction with the kick, which is often a lengthy process. Usually when I am using a sampled layer, it is not only brought up underneath kit piece I’m using, but I am also using the envelope and velocity curve to make it blend in further and augment the kit piece I am using it with.
Many of the layered samples are often either processed samples or generated electronically. As to their origins, some of them are taken from drum machines while others are synthesized.
jord
Rev2010The only reason you’d be experiencing machine gun effect is because you’re simply adding the sample into the stack and leaving it at a single volume. In the real world, you would be varying the volume of the layered sample (assuming you are doing drum replacement old school, which a lot of producers do) in conjunction with the kick, which is often a lengthy process. Usually when I am using a sampled layer, it is not only brought up underneath kit piece I’m using, but I am also using the envelope and velocity curve to make it blend in further and augment the kit piece I am using it with.
Many of the layered samples are often either processed samples or generated electronically. As to their origins, some of them are taken from drum machines while others are synthesized.
jord
No, Superior Drummer itself triggers the samples volume based on the midi note velocity, it doesn’t trigger each sample hit at max velocity. It machine guns because there is *zero* variance, it’s the same sample triggered repeatedly in a row – just like the typical drum machine. Superior avoids this by sampling hits more than once, using round robin sample playback to rotate through though samples as well as using adjacent layers – since humans never trigger with the exact same energy in each hit.
I’m figuring you already know this though, so I’m not sure why you would think machine gunning wouldn’t occur as it *always* does when using single samples triggered repeatedly. If the preset makers instead took the less lazy route, as they have in the past, they wouldn’t use pre-processed magic samples, and just process the existing sounds with the effects in SD3. This way we wouldn’t get machine gunning since there would be single static samples in our kits. Btw, I did mention I made it less noticeable by increasing the velocity range by lowering soft hits to -24db and also lowering the layer a lot more in the stack. Would still be great to have this sound without relying on a single sample to achieve this sound.
What’s going on here? I just replied and now my reply appears to be gone.
Bear-Faced CowI think you’re assuming that I’m not familiar with this process. I am well aware of how single samples work. This is far from my first rodeo!
Yes, by themselves you will notice machine gun. Used alongside the kit pieces in their proper context, you will not notice that in the sample because the focus is not the sample itself. It is the combination of the sample under the kit piece. Like I said before, the use of single samples is still used in drum layering for bringing out transients. It is far from the less lazy route if you have have done this within a DAW, as many well known producers and engineers do. In fact, one of the well known techniques is to grab a sample of the drum kit they were recording and bring it up underneath the recorded kit for weight.
If you are getting machine gun effects when layering samples, you are either adding too much of it or not using the volume curve as well adjusting the envelope of the sample, or a combination of all of this. If you’re too busy noticing the sample, then you have too much of it. Plain and simple.
jord
Rev2010Do this, go into SD3 and load the Iowa kit. Solo the kick then solo the two samples in the stack. You’ll find the single meat kick sample is way louder than the Pearl kick. And if you go into the Andy Sneap presets the samples in the stacks are on average equal volume to the real kicks. I get what you’re saying, and I’ve already said that yeah that is how I got it to sound lore natural. The point is people have been getting these types of sounds simply by EQ’ing, compressing, etc kick drums without having too mix in single shot samples. Would be more helpful to have real tweaking rather than using samples to short cut. Metal Foundry for example doesn’t use samples to beef up the drums from what I recall in my use of it.
Bear-Faced CowYou’re incorrect in assuming that producers only use eq and compression. Quite often they’ll add a sample of a click to bring out the kick transients. Other times, they layer three or four kick samples in order to get the sound they want. You’re right, the Metal Foundry doesn’t have samples. And it doesn’t have as much punch, and I’ve often added a transient to the kicks to bring them out. Metal Machinery presets do use samples and if you listen to them, they are mostly transients brought up underneath kit pieces. Rock Foundry also uses most of its samples in the similar fashion. And yes, the Iowa kick is heavy on the sample. However, that is more indicative of a death metal kick and if you were to listen to that kit in the context of a song, rather than the kit itself, you’ll find it would sit in the mix. Perhaps what you’re missing is the fact that in a real world mix situation, quite often the drums sound very unnatural when solo’d, where in the mix they fit right in.
jord
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