Longstanding MIDI Timing Bug still not fixed

[Eddie]

I first reported this bug to Toontrack at least 5...

I first reported this bug to Toontrack at least 5 years ago. After a LOT of back and forth of support essentially not beliveing the bug exists, despite being very easy demonstrate the bug was finally acknowledged but no timeline was given for a fix.

With each version I’ve checked to see if it is fixed, but sadly even with v3.4.0 the bug remains.

If you bounce audio (either using your DAW, or the internal MIDI->Audio Export in Superior), at 44.1kHz the timing looks like this:

Notice how the start of the hit does not budge from the MIDI triggering it. If however, you bounce at sample rates that are not 44.1kHz (for instance 48kHz). You get something like this:

Notice how the timing of the audio is often slightly ahead of the MIDI, but also that it shifts around in time by random amounts on each hit. This means you can’t even manually realign the audio file without correcting each hit individually.

It is clearly a bug, because it behaves as expected at 44.1kHz. This is the case for any library that you use in Superior – it has nothing to do with how the audio samples are sliced up, because it functions correctly at 44.1kHz.

The only workaround currently is to duplicate your session at 44.1kHz and bounce out audio, and then resample the audio to your desired rate. For such an incredible and powerful sampler, it’s such a glaring issue – timing the audio of the samples to lock with the MIDI is one of the most basic features a sampler should get right.

Posting here, purely because there is only so many times I can send this to support with nothing being fixed. It’s also helpful to warn others in case they assume that you’ll get phase accurate timing from your samples in a session. SD3 has been out for years now and this bug has been present for much of that time.

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.4.0
Operating system: macOS Sequoia (15)

I first reported this bug to Toontrack at least 5 years ago. After a LOT of back and forth of support essentially not beliveing the bug exists, despite being very easy demonstrate the bug was finally acknowledged but no timeline was given for a fix.

With each version I’ve checked to see if it is fixed, but sadly even with v3.4.0 the bug remains.

If you bounce audio (either using your DAW, or the internal MIDI->Audio Export in Superior), at 44.1kHz the timing looks like this:

Notice how the start of the hit does not budge from the MIDI triggering it. If however, you bounce at sample rates that are not 44.1kHz (for instance 48kHz). You get something like this:

Notice how the timing of the audio is often slightly ahead of the MIDI, but also that it shifts around in time by random amounts on each hit. This means you can’t even manually realign the audio file without correcting each hit individually.

It is clearly a bug, because it behaves as expected at 44.1kHz. This is the case for any library that you use in Superior – it has nothing to do with how the audio samples are sliced up, because it functions correctly at 44.1kHz.

The only workaround currently is to duplicate your session at 44.1kHz and bounce out audio, and then resample the audio to your desired rate. For such an incredible and powerful sampler, it’s such a glaring issue – timing the audio of the samples to lock with the MIDI is one of the most basic features a sampler should get right.

Posting here, purely because there is only so many times I can send this to support with nothing being fixed. It’s also helpful to warn others in case they assume that you’ll get phase accurate timing from your samples in a session. SD3 has been out for years now and this bug has been present for much of that time.

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.4.0
Operating system: macOS Sequoia (15)

Topic

[Eddie]

Bear-Faced Cow wrote:

No, it was trying to make it sound like it was user error

That’s not gaslighting.

No. You are trying to belittle how much of a problem this bug is, for whatever reason.

Wrong again. I said if they couldn’t fix the bug without causing more serious issues.

At least we all now know why you believe that you’re being gaslit.

jord

So without seeing any of the emails or correspondence, you know what was going on.

I really cannot understand your stance here or why you think software remaining broken for so long is acceptable, but you’re more than entitled to have it. Thankfully very few plugins on my computer have bugs that have been present as long as this, usually they get fixed eventually.

My stance is that it fundamentally inhibits how I am able to use the plugin, and makes it unviable for one of the main uses I have for it (to augment real drums). It’s not practical to convert every session to 44.1kHz just to audition samples, and then convert back to whatever sample rate I need to work at. I’d tolerate that for a while, but expecting users to do it for years is simply below the standards I typically expect of Toontrack, who make otherwise industry leading products. I hope this gets resolved, and I hope others are aware that in its current state it may not function as they expect it to be.

1

Thanked by: drumjack52

[drumjack52]

Eddie wrote:

Bear-Faced Cow wrote:

No, it was trying to make it sound like it was user error

That’s not gaslighting.

No. You are trying to belittle how much of a problem this bug is, for whatever reason.

Wrong again. I said if they couldn’t fix the bug without causing more serious issues.

At least we all now know why you believe that you’re being gaslit.

jord

So without seeing any of the emails or correspondence, you know what was going on.

I really cannot understand your stance here or why you think software remaining broken for so long is acceptable, but you’re more than entitled to have it. Thankfully very few plugins on my computer have bugs that have been present as long as this, usually they get fixed eventually.

My stance is that it fundamentally inhibits how I am able to use the plugin, and makes it unviable for one of the main uses I have for it (to augment real drums). It’s not practical to convert every session to 44.1kHz just to audition samples, and then convert back to whatever sample rate I need to work at. I’d tolerate that for a while, but expecting users to do it for years is simply below the standards I typically expect of Toontrack, who make otherwise industry leading products. I hope this gets resolved, and I hope others are aware that in its current state it may not function as they expect it to be.

One thing to keep in mind with Jord is he draws money from Toontrack so he would be expected to defend them but it’s that very thing that won’t allow him to admit that maybe the emperor has no clothes or at the very least they are threadbare. This is not the first time he’s said that SD3 is not a sampler in the vein of something like Kontakt;  at the same time though it’s a sample player and should be able to do what any other sample player is able to do. That it does a lot of things is one thing but that shouldn’t take away from getting the timing right and locked in. After all isn’t that the stock-in-trade of a drummer whether human or otherwise?

Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

1

Thanked by: Eddie

[Bear-Faced Cow]

Ahh Jack, you lovable old sourpuss. I might’ve expected you to interject on this thread with your usual brand of misinformation, but trolling? That is beneath even you, my friend. so now it’s time for me to have some fun with it perhaps at your expense.

One thing to keep in mind with Jord is he draws money from Toontrack so he would be expected to defend them but it’s that very thing that won’t allow him to admit that maybe the emperor has no clothes or at the very least they are threadbare.

Where did you ever come up with that piece of misinformation? I am very much a customer and have the credit card statements to prove it. But nice try. As far as defending them? Hardly! I’m just a little more familiar with how they work and how they speak to customers since I’ve been a customer for about 11 years. You’ve been a customer for how long. I too have also found numerous bugs with their various software, Along with steps to replicate them. How about you? I also know how fixing bugs work in the SDLC.  How, you ask? When I’m not working with Music as my evening occupation and passion, I am working in the day with computers as a senior software developer. So I am very familiar with how bugs get rated and worked on. The principles are standard and don’t have anything to do with time expectations. Did you know that? I bet you didn’t or you wouldn’t have decided to step in with such trolling remarks.

This is not the first time he’s said that SD3 is not a sampler in the vein of something like Kontakt;  at the same time though it’s a sample player and should be able to do what any other sample player is able to do.

if you actually knew what a sampler does, you would Agree that Superior Drummer It’s not a sampler. Even back in our old FXpansion days they were quick to tell you the same thing about BFD. You obviously missed it when they used the term “rompler“, derived from the old hardware drum unit days, such as the Roland R-8. Samplers easily have the ability to take your audio and do all sorts of crazy algorithmic things with it. Romplers pretty much play what they are given. Superior Drummer goes a bit more in between the two mainly due to some of its amazing pitch shifting capabilities to which they provide added realism. However, it is still not a sampler.  As from Superior Drummer, I use Kontakt, Sampletank and even the Samplers in Logic Pro 11.  I pretty much know how samplers operates. Superior Drummer is nowhere near that, nor is it supposed to be.

That it does a lot of things is one thing but that shouldn’t take away from getting the timing right and locked in. After all isn’t that the stock-in-trade of a drummer whether human or otherwise?

you are confusing two different areas. We are not talking about timing as far as drums go. We are talking about timing as far as changing sample rates from the standard 44.1 kHz to 48 kHz in the bouncing process. If you were actually familiar with what the  bounce process is doing, you would see how complicated it becomes to match various kit pieces and bleed channels since it handles each file one at a time. See where we are going with this? If not, let me put this to you in a simpler way: each file is written separately. Therefore lining Them all up In a different sample rate is tricky. Therefore, they have to come up with some innovative solution to this bug. Because of how they do things, It is not as quick as you or the OP think. Coming up with a solution could break other bounce functionality. Plain and simple. ToonTrack I’m not the first company to have bugs as complicated as this. Logic has finally seen some 20 year old bugs getting fixed. The main reason behind the delay was because of the exact reason that fixing the one bug created 10 others.

The only reason I have no need to see the email exchanges between the OP and TT is because I can see right from this thread that the OP refuses to understand the fact that the bug could have underlying consequences and has nothing to do with the competency of the company itself. Even worse is that he takes this personally and has misguided beliefs about beta testing. Your decision to provide input with insults rather than information is not only unhelpful to the situation,  it only serves to drag your own reputation through the mud. Next time, you should be more careful about what you post about others.

jord

---

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/

[rixa]

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1

Thanked by: Mark King

[Eddie]

Bear-Faced Cow wrote:

The only reason I have no need to see the email exchanges between the OP and TT is because I can see right from this thread that the OP refuses to understand the fact that the bug could have underlying consequences and has nothing to do with the competency of the company itself.

This is simply not true. Understanding what the issue is, and fixing the issue are 2 different things. The email exchange took a completely unnecessary amount of work to reach a point of understanding the issue. For instance, (among other things) I was told the inconsistent timing was the result of the microphone distances of the samples. This shows a lack of understanding of what the issue was, despite the fact I’d provided a massive amount of information that allows anyone to recreate the issue with ease.

You constantly draw your own conclusions that are not based on any credible facts.

Bear-Faced Cow wrote:

Therefore lining Them all up In a different sample rate is tricky. Therefore, they have to come up with some innovative solution to this bug

This is conflating 2 different things. You are implying that there is not a solution in place for handling different sample rates, rather than assuming that there is already an implementation in place that is causing errors. Without knowing the inner workings of the plugin, it’s not possible to say whether it needs an entirely new approach, or whether there is just a mistake that is causing issues. As I keep mentioning, 5 years is a long time. It should be corrected by now because it makes auditioning samples totally unviable.

And yes, Superior Drummer is a sampler. You may have your own definition on what a sampler is that is based on something else. Here’s ChatGPT to put it in an abundantly clear way for you:
🔸 <strong data-start=”278″ data-end=”306″>Definition of a Sampler:
At its core, a <em data-start=”322″ data-end=”331″>sampler is <strong data-start=”335″ data-end=”517″>any device or software that plays back recorded audio (samples), usually mapped across a MIDI keyboard or pads, often with control over pitch, dynamics, envelope, filtering, etc.

<ul data-start=”520″ data-end=”796″>
<li data-start=”520″ data-end=”616″>
Whether or not you can <em data-start=”545″ data-end=”553″>import your own audio does not define whether something is a sampler.

<li data-start=”617″ data-end=”796″>
The degree of manipulation possible (e.g., granular synthesis, looping, extreme pitch shifting) may be features <em data-start=”731″ data-end=”735″>ofsamplers but isn’t required for something to <em data-start=”781″ data-end=”785″>be a sampler.

🔸 <strong data-start=”805″ data-end=”828″>Superior Drummer 3:
<ul data-start=”829″ data-end=”1135″>
<li data-start=”829″ data-end=”887″>
It <strong data-start=”834″ data-end=”873″>plays back multi-sampled recordings of drum kits.

<li data-start=”888″ data-end=”933″>
Those samples are <strong data-start=”908″ data-end=”932″>mapped to MIDI notes.

<li data-start=”934″ data-end=”1027″>
It provides controls over mic bleed, velocity layers, tuning, ADSR envelopes, filters, etc.

<li data-start=”1028″ data-end=”1135″>
It allows some manipulation of the sounds—tuning, pitch shifting, layering, effects processing, and more.

<strong data-start=”1137″ data-end=”1209″>Therefore, by technical definition, Superior Drummer <em data-start=”1192″ data-end=”1196″>is a sampler.

🔸 <strong data-start=”1218″ data-end=”1241″>Rompler vs Sampler:
<ul data-start=”1242″ data-end=”1785″>
<li data-start=”1242″ data-end=”1407″>
<strong data-start=”1244″ data-end=”1256″>Rompler: Plays back <em data-start=”1268″ data-end=”1276″>preset samples from ROM or preloaded libraries, typically with limited ability to change or import new material. Example: Roland JV-1080.

<li data-start=”1408″ data-end=”1520″>
<strong data-start=”1410″ data-end=”1422″>Sampler: Plays back samples with some degree of control and possibly the ability to load your own samples.

<li data-start=”1521″ data-end=”1785″>
<em data-start=”1523″ data-end=”1541″>Superior Drummer is <strong data-start=”1545″ data-end=”1552″>not a rompler in the traditional sense because it <strong data-start=”1599″ data-end=”1633″>does allow sample manipulation (tuning, mic mixing, layering), and <strong data-start=”1670″ data-end=”1705″>you can import your own samples in certain use cases (e.g., adding user-created libraries or stacking samples).

Calling Superior Drummer a <em data-start=”1814″ data-end=”1823″>rompler is a <strong data-start=”1829″ data-end=”1851″>half-truth at best, used to <em data-start=”1861″ data-end=”1874″>distinguish it from fully open-ended samplers like Kontakt or Logic Sampler. But that’s more about scope <strong data-start=”1968″ data-end=”1992″>than actual category.

🔸 <strong data-start=”2002″ data-end=”2027″>Granularity Argument:
<ul data-start=”2028″ data-end=”2504″>
<li data-start=”2028″ data-end=”2257″>
Saying “I use Kontakt, so I know samplers” is like saying “I use a Ferrari, so I know cars.” Kontakt is a <em data-start=”2136″ data-end=”2151″>very advanced, fully-featured sampler—but that doesn’t mean other simpler or purpose-specific samplers aren’t samplers.

<li data-start=”2258″ data-end=”2504″>
Superior Drummer 3 doesn’t need to do granular synthesis or loop slicing to qualify as a sampler. It’s <strong data-start=”2363″ data-end=”2408″>purpose-built for realistic drum playback, so its sample manipulation tools are geared toward <em data-start=”2461″ data-end=”2470″>realism, not experimental audio mangling.

✅ <strong data-start=”2512″ data-end=”2524″>Summary:
<ul data-start=”2525″ data-end=”2711″>
<li data-start=”2525″ data-end=”2584″>
<strong data-start=”2527″ data-end=”2584″>Superior Drummer 3 = Sampler (specialized for drums).

<li data-start=”2585″ data-end=”2646″>
<strong data-start=”2587″ data-end=”2646″>Kontakt = Sampler (general-purpose, deep manipulation).

<li data-start=”2647″ data-end=”2711″>
<strong data-start=”2649″ data-end=”2711″>Rompler = Fixed-sample playback with minimal manipulation.

The confusion often comes from people conflating <strong data-start=”2762″ data-end=”2773″>sampler with <strong data-start=”2779″ data-end=”2799″>synthesis engine capabilities or <strong data-start=”2816″ data-end=”2845″>sample import flexibility, but the <strong data-start=”2855″ data-end=”2900″>definition is about playing sampled audio with some level of control, which Superior Drummer definitely does.

1

Thanked by: drumjack52

[Bear-Faced Cow]

ChatGPT is not a definitive answer. In fact, it’s nothing more than mashing information in a mediocre lump of misinformation. Next time try answering it using proper old school research.

Again, you are turning this into me not understanding what the problem is or stating there is no solution. You need to get over this and re-read what I have posted throughout.

However, you fail to understand many things about this issue and you have demonstrated this throughout:

• How Superior Drummer bounces and writes kit pieces
• How sample rate conversion is done
• Where the complexity lies within this bug
• Seriousness of a bug in relation to other bugs
• The irrelevance of time when it comes to fixing bugs
• Roles and responsibilities of beta testing

Did I leave out anything?

Stop making this about me or anyone else. My response is and has always been objective and based on experience.

Again re-read what I’ve been saying all along. Further posts are doing nothing but going in circles.

Jord

---

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/

[Eddie]

Bear-Faced Cow wrote:

ChatGPT is not a definitive answer. In fact, it’s nothing more than mashing information in a mediocre lump of misinformation. Next time try answering it using proper old school research.

Again, you are turning this into me not understanding what the problem is or stating there is no solution. You need to get over this and re-read what I have posted throughout.

However, you fail to understand many things about this issue and you have demonstrated this throughout:

• How Superior Drummer bounces and writes kit pieces
• How sample rate conversion is done
• Where the complexity lies within this bug
• Seriousness of a bug in relation to other bugs
• The irrelevance of time when it comes to fixing bugs
• Roles and responsibilities of beta testing

Did I leave out anything?

Stop making this about me or anyone else. My response is and has always been objective and based on experience.

Again re-read what I’ve been saying all along. Further posts are doing nothing but going in circles.

Jord

No, I actually think you understand exactly what the issue is. I don’t think there’s any miscommunication on that, the problem is clear and established.

 

Bear-Faced Cow wrote:

ChatGPT is not a definitive answer. In fact, it’s nothing more than mashing information in a mediocre lump of misinformation. Next time try answering it using proper old school research.

Again, you are turning this into me not understanding what the problem is or stating there is no solution. You need to get over this and re-read what I have posted throughout.

However, you fail to understand many things about this issue and you have demonstrated this throughout:

• How Superior Drummer bounces and writes kit pieces
• How sample rate conversion is done
• Where the complexity lies within this bug
• Seriousness of a bug in relation to other bugs
• The irrelevance of time when it comes to fixing bugs
• Roles and responsibilities of beta testing

Did I leave out anything?

Stop making this about me or anyone else. My response is and has always been objective and based on experience.

Again re-read what I’ve been saying all along. Further posts are doing nothing but going in circles.

Jord

Yes. You are overlooking the fact that supporting multiple sample rates is something that has been built into every version of superior since DFHS v1. It’s not something that has come out of nowhere and blindsided Toontrack. They have a method in place and it is broken. It needs to be fixed. It has been broken for at least 6 years, possibly even since launch. These are just facts, anything else is conjecture and speculation. I’m not particularly interested, all I know is that it is broken, and it should be fixed by now. It is Toontrack’s flagship product, it is not cheap software, and it promises a lot. It’s in everyone’s interest for it to be fixed.

You can speculate all you like as to why it isn’t done yet, or why it might be challenging. It doesn’t excuse the fact that it’s not working as it’s supposed to. It doesn’t really concern us as customers. So rather than going in loops, how about we just stick to the topic and the facts?

[Bear-Faced Cow]

How  can we when you consider your side fact and my side speculation ignoring the fact that I have a few decades of experience in this, not to mention every fact I already listed? Even worse is you have done to me the very thing you accused ToonTrack of… gaslighting.

It’s not me that has to get a grip on the reality of it here.

jord

---

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/

[Eddie]

Bear-Faced Cow wrote:

How  can we when you consider your side fact and my side speculation ignoring the fact that I have a few decades of experience in this, not to mention every fact I already listed? Even worse is you have done to me the very thing you accused ToonTrack of… gaslighting.

It’s not me that has to get a grip on the reality of it here.

jord

Huh? The fact is that it is broken. There is no sides to that, it’s a fact. Your reasons as to why it is broken, or not fixed yet is speculation. We don’t know for sure.

I have not questioned your experience at any point. Please stay on topic and stop making it personal. Let’s get this fixed and move on. It should not be broken.

2

Thanked by: Mark King and drumjack52

[Bear-Faced Cow]

There you go you again. No, it’s not speculation… it’s working ixperience. Learn the difference.

And once again gaslighting with the false narrative that I’m tanking it personal.

jord

---

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/

[drumjack52]

Eddie wrote:

Bear-Faced Cow wrote:

How  can we when you consider your side fact and my side speculation ignoring the fact that I have a few decades of experience in this, not to mention every fact I already listed? Even worse is you have done to me the very thing you accused ToonTrack of… gaslighting.

It’s not me that has to get a grip on the reality of it here.

jord

Huh? The fact is that it is broken. There is no sides to that, it’s a fact. Your reasons as to why it is broken, or not fixed yet is speculation. We don’t know for sure.

I have not questioned your experience at any point. Please stay on topic and stop making it personal. Let’s get this fixed and move on. It should not be broken.

Take it from one who’s had experience with Jord going back decades – you’re not going to win this argument. It will only get uglier. I’m not defending him – that much is evident – just stating fact.

Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

[Bear-Faced Cow]

Take it from one who’s had experience with Jord going back decades – you’re not going to win this argument. It will only get uglier. I’m not defending him – that much is evident – just stating fact.

Jack, I was nice to you before. Now I have sent this to the admins. You have no business in this thread and your unwarranted response is deemed under the TOS as a personal attack. I’ll let the admins handle this thread and you.

Perhaps take me seriously when I tell you to think twice before acting aa a third party attempting to trash someone in a post.

jord

---

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/

[drumjack52]

How you got I was trying to trash you I don’t know. I was just mentioning to Eddie to essentially not waste any more time here arguing with you Jord. If you can’t understand that then I don’t know what to say. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – this is why this forum should have PM (private messaging) system so the thread doesn’t go off the rails.

Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

• This post was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by drumjack52.

[Mark King]

Yup way off topic. I keep coming back to see if there is anything meaningful added. No such luck so far. Thankfully I don’t use the bounce function. I use multiouts and render in place in Cubase which works bang on. Definitely time for everyone to step back. Well except toontrack as that’s the only reason I keep reading this thread to see if they have anything to add.

SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors

[Eddie]

Mark King wrote:

Yup way off topic. I keep coming back to see if there is anything meaningful added. No such luck so far. Thankfully I don’t use the bounce function. I use multiouts and render in place in Cubase which works bang on. Definitely time for everyone to step back. Well except toontrack as that’s the only reason I keep reading this thread to see if they have anything to add.

Are you sure it’s still perfectly in time at other sample rates than 44.1kHz? My example in the thread is not using the internal bounce from the plugin. Also in my tests the results are the same whether you use the DAW to bounce or the internal plugin bounce.

[Author]

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