Kick position Metal Machinery and Metal Foundry

[Demious]

Im building a kit with the Metal Machinery and Metal Foundry setup, but I keep having problems with the position of the kicks. The right kick (audience perspective) sounds from the left of the left kick and with Metal Machinery at least 1 meter further away. This is not the difference between the left and right recordings, Im using 2 left kicks, so the sound should be exactly the same. Ive got the close mics soloed, so its not in the 3D perspective of the bleeds of the OH and Amb mics thats off, or the bleed on other channels, but its already there in the kick’s own channels of the mixer. This happens for every kick I tried, from SD3, Metal Machinery and Metal Factory. I tried switching the mics, kick 1 in to kick 2 in and the other way around, but the position in the 3D picture stays exactly the same. The left kick sounds from exactly the middle en the right kick a little left of the middle and 1 meter further away.

How do I get a proper positioning for left and right (both in the middle, or the right kick just to the right and the left just to the left of the middle) and the same sound for both kicks, when I use the same kick twice?

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.1.4
Operating system: Windows 10

Cheers!
Maarten

Mac Pro, Catalina, Studio One 5 Pro, Quantum2626

• This topic was modified 6 years ago by Demious.

Topic

[Erik]

Hi Demious,

I’m not sure I understand fully, so I can’t reproduce what you’re describing, but if you look at the two libraries and their microphone setups, you can see that Metal Machinery uses three microphones for each kick, while the Metal Foundry uses one, and a shared Kick Out.

Depending on which of the two libraries you use as the base, you may need to add user channels and route the additional mics there, or re-route them to different channels.

For instance, loading a Metal Foundry kick drum into Metal Machinery, the channels aren’t the same, and so Superior isn’t sure how to route the outputs. In this instance, it just dumps all the kick mics into the Kick Cond channel of the respective drum (even the bleed isn’t right – maybe this is your issue).

If this is what you’re having problems with, they may go away if you change these routings, so that they go into more appropriate channels.

To read more about instrument routing, look here: 9.4.1 Route Instrument Microphones

Erik Berglund — Toontrack

[Demious]

I understand what youre saying, but this is not the issue, here. All mics are routed properly and are double checked (several times even)

What Im talking about is the placement of both kicks in the stereo field. They should either be both in the middle, or the left kick slightly to the left and the right kick slightly to the right, but the left kick is in the middle and the right kick is to the left side of the left kick and a full step further away. I checked routing and theres nothing wrong there, panning on the mixer is center for all 3 mics and it are both right kicks, so from the recording of the samples, they should sound both in the same place with the same sound (concidering the mics carying a 3D spread are turned off).

I found more of the same. The ride stand positions 1 and 2 from the TMF kit are turned around, ride 1 is positioned in front of ride 2. I thought the positioning was in the samples, but when I turn the cymbals around, its still the cymbal on the ride 2 stand, that sounds from behind the cymbal on the ride 1 stand. And this works the same for every cymbal I put on these stands.

Also the ride and the two crashes on the left side (audience perspective) of the SD3 kit sounds from the right on the dymanic overhead channel, while they sound normal (from the left) on the ambient channels and overhead condensor channel. Again, routing is all correct, panning is correct and also this goes for every cymbal I put on those stands. To confirm the positioning for the complete kit, the hihat is sounding from the right side, so the ride should sound from the left, but it only does this on the ambient mics and overhead condernsor mics and it sounds from the hihat position on the overhead dynamic mics and no, these are not reversed, because the hihat is in its correct location. Both OH sets are routed together in SD3, so its not like I didnt see I stereo-reversed channels on my DAW’s mixer by accident, which is confirmed by the fact that all cymbals on the right side also sound from the right side. It are only the left side’s cymbals that are reversed on one of the overhead channels.

Cheers!
Maarten

Mac Pro, Catalina, Studio One 5 Pro, Quantum2626

[Erik]

Hello again,

I loaded a level meter in my DAW and played the kicks back with only the close mic. I’d say they’re pretty centered (two medium and two hard hits each):
Metal Foundry

Metal Machinery

Metal Machinery leveled

Regarding the overheads, I’m not sure what you mean with “in front of”. If it’s loudness, you can adjust the levels on the close mics in the channel properties.

I’d like you to remember, that each individual channel doesn’t correspond to a single instrument, but to a microphone that was used in the actual recording of the kit. As such, panning individual channels does not change where the actual drum is placed, only what is being sent to the master output, just like mixing analogue; You’re not moving the microphones or instruments around by panning the mixer channels, you only decide how much of what the microphones pick up goes where, just as if you were sitting by a mixing desk in a real studio. That’s the basic idea, but of course Superior Drummer offers bleed control and per direct level adjustments, which an analogue mixer could only dream about.

The default perspective in our products is the drummer’s perspective, since it makes visualizing the sounds easier for the user. If you want to switch to audience perspective, flip the panning on the red channels (Out 1/2 unless you use multi out).

Am I still missing the mark? After writing this, I feel that it may be a misunderstanding causing your problems. You can swap the drums, but you can’t move them around “physically”. You can indirectly swap the mics, by loading instruments from other libraries, but you can’t move them around. In Superior, you work with the input from those microphones, just like a mixing engineer would.

Erik Berglund — Toontrack

• This post was modified 6 years ago by Erik.

[Demious]

One object being in front of another object means that the first object is positioned closer to you than the second object. Not just panning and level makes up the position of an instruments, especially we we’re talking about depth. If you turn up the volume level, the instrument further away just sounds louder from behind the instrument that is closer to you, but it doesnt change its audible position within the depth perception. Therefor measuring loudness doesnt tell much about how far an object is away from you. Depth perception is build up out of more than just loudness. Its mainly in the coloring of the sound that makes this difference, as well as timing between different microphones at different distances, when the overhead and ambient mics are active.

Let me walk through the process, step by step, and write down the actions and results. And lets stick to one issue for now; kick positions.

For this example, I opened the standalone version of SD3, connected to the main left/right output of my I/O, to eliminate routing errors from a DAW. When I open the Metal Machinery default kit (the one that is loaded when you select that library) and check the stereo perspective by playing the hihat and ride (hihat sounds from the left and ride from the right) and the toms (smallest racktom sounds from the left, biggest floortom sounds from the right). I play the kicks, kick 1 (right foot) sounds a little right from center and kick 2 (left foot) a little left from center (mixer is set to drummer’s perspective, so all of this is correct). But now I want to change this (my vision is that Im mixing for the audience, not for the drummer), so I go to the MIXER tab, pull down the Mixer menu (top left) and place a check mark in front of ‘Stereo Reverse Mixer’, so now the kicks should be placed in audience perspective, kick 1 to the left of center and kick 2 to the right, am I right? when I play the ride, the sound is coming from my left speaker and when I play the hihat, it comes from my right speaker (also checked toms and they also reversed properly), so the stereo image is indeed reversed, listening to these instruments. However, the same is not happening for the kicks. Both kicks are still in the same position as when they were before I reversed the stereo image (kick 1 is still on the right side and kick 2 still on the left). How do I reverse the stereo image for the kicks, the same way the stereo image for the ride and hihat (and other instruments) was reversed when I checked ‘Stereo Reverse Mixer’?

Now, when I solo both Kick Cond channels on the mixer (so 1 close mic per kick only), so I eliminate depth and stereo perception from overheads and ambient mics (there are no active bleeds on any close mics of the kit. All of that is still default), Id think that both kicks would be placed in the center of the stereo field, concidering the panning for each close mic is set to 0 (zero/center position), but this is not the case. While stereo reversed, both kicks sound still in the same position as where they started when I loaded the kit’s default setting (kick 1 to the right, kick 2 to the left). My first thought was to switch the routing between both kicks. If the Kick 1 channel is always placed to the right and the Kick 2 channel always to the left, regardless of the stereo reverse option, I just switch the kicks’ channels, to switch the position of the kicks. Still, having done this, both kicks remain in the same postion as when I loaded the default settings. Whatever I do, the position of kick 1 and 2 doesnt change within the stereo field.

With a single close mic soloed for each kick, comes a clear difference in sound (which of course should happen, concidering that most righthanded people have more strength in their right foot than their left and the other way around), but this difference is so big, that the kick 2 seems to be further away than kick 1. This is a difference in the coloring of the sound (there is also a loudness difference, of course, but this can be fixed, like you said, by increasing the volume, so for this example its not relevant. What Im after at this point is persuing the same coloring of the sound for both kicks). Because the difference in color of the sound between left and right is too much for my taste, I want to eliminate this difference, so I replace the kick 2 for a second copy of the kick 1 (the kick 1 samples are now loaded for both kicks). Remember that for both kicks the Kick Cond channels are soloed, so twice the same samples, recorded with the same mic, routed to the I/O with the same default mixer settings. Id think I would get the exact same sound from both kicks, but now the kick 2 is much louder than kick 1, a lot less clicky and much more boomy. I’ll program the difference in strength between right and left foot later on, matching my personal taste, so for starts, I want both kicks (same samples, same mic and same settings) to sound the same. How can I do this?

I hope I explained actions and results detailed enough to follow along. If anything might not be as clear as I think it is, please let me know.

Cheers!
Maarten

Mac Pro, Catalina, Studio One 5 Pro, Quantum2626

• The post has been modified 2 times, last modified 6 years ago by Demious.

[Erik]

Thanks for your patience, Demious.

Stereo reverse inverts the panning of all microphone channels. In the case of the kicks, since they are centered, their panning is not affected, and they will sound identical. From 5.1.1 The Mixer Menu:

Stereo Reverse Mixer: This option will change all of the panning in the mixer for every channel to the opposite side. Channels panned in the center will remain in the center.

Looking at the last post I did, soloing the close mics in both Metal Machinery and The Metal Foundry produces a completely centered output from Superior Drummer. If you perceive an actual offset there (and not just a different timbre or loudness), it either lies in tone or timbre differences, or just volume.

As for loudness in Metal Machinery, you notice I included two demonstrations there. The reason for this is – just like you observed – because in the default mix, Kick 1 (Right) is more than twice as loud as Kick 2 (Left). The output was still centered in both of the examples, however. There is a difference in timbre between the two as well, just as you note – they are two different kick drums played with two different feet after all.

If you think they sound mismatched, you could either use only one of them (remove Kick 2), or do a sneaky and load the right kick drum in the left kick position if you want to pan them (remember to change mixer levels and instrument routing if you do).

If you have an active monitoring system, I would also look and see if they are set identically. If you play in a cramped room, it could be an acoustic problem – one speaker generating standing waves due to its position, but the other one not.

It could also be good old psychoacoustics playing a trick here. I was sure there was a difference in sound when I loaded the same drum on both positions (the right side 18×22″ Tama), until I disabled hit variation, and they became identical.

Erik Berglund — Toontrack

[Olof Westman]

Sonically, the effect of ‘Stereo Reverse Mixer’ is the same as swapping left and right channel of the outputs of SD3. So if you don’t experience that effect then the problem is likely to sit in your room, in your headphones or in your ears.

Olof Westman - Toontrack
Coder

[Demious]

If those kicks should sound in the same position and you can confirm that from your setup, I think the problem is becomming clear, since – and I asked several people to listen, people who are, as well as people who’re not trained in listening, but everyone percieves the Metal Machinery Kicks to the left and right of the centre, about 1.5 foot appart, with any combination of mics – there’s a clear difference between my setup and yours. And with what Ive seen today, after testing and checking different kits I build, in my oppinion this points at a bug. I went over every setting from SD3 and my DAW and my I/O and my speakers (I measured both my speakers sets with Reference and one set has +0.1dB on one side and the other set +0.2dB to the other side, so theyre balanced pretty accuratly). And its not just those speakers, its also noticable with different headphones. With my Beyer Dynamic DT990Pro, I can even feel the air push against my hands on the outside of the open cups and I can feel one kick push harder on one side and the other kick on the other side. Ive tried everything I could think of to make sure its not in head. I know how easily a human brain can be tricked.

And its not just these kicks. I found similar issues in other places. Yesterday I had one where the ride and 2 crashes, all on the same side, got ‘stuck’ when reversing the stereo image, in one setting they were opposite the hihat, while in the other position (when the hihat switched sides), they were on the same side as the hihat. After some messing around with routing, this stopped happening for the ride and it stayed opposite from the hihat, while the crashes were still stuck. This morning, when I wanted to show a friend what I found, I started up my computer and I couldnt find it anymore. At first I thought I must have heard wrong, untill I noticed a similar thing happening with a crash. So I loaded the same crash on the same position of a setup from another expansion and then the cymbal sounded from the opposite side, when listening to the overheads and ambient mics, while a position of a cymbal is not panned, its in the recording itself and yes the stereo reverse was check-marked in both cases. So I went back to the setup I found the error in and the cymbal changed to the side as it was with the other expansion. I havent been able to reproduce the issue with that cymbal, or any other cymbal on the same stand, or the same cymbal on any other stand. Another one is that ride 1 and 2 from TMF are reversed (this is depth, not left/right), from audience perspective, ride 2 is further away than ride 1, so I thought this depthperception was in the samples, so I switched the rides’ position, but still, ride 1 was closer than ride 2.

I have been recording and mixing for about 30 years now, Im not a master, but Im no noob either and after over a week of noticing strange things that I couldnt find again later on, thinking it must have been a different cymbal than I thought it was, or I was mistaken about which kit it was, I really started to doubt myself. So I asked a friend to come over, this morning, and this guy has a ton more experience than I have and he confirms everything Ive seen today. The 2 constant issues are the separated kicks that dont reverse and the other is that not one single crash (from EZD, SD3, Metal EZX, TMF SDX and MM SDX, all together) will sound from the cymbal 4 (SD3) position. Both these issues have been there at least for the whole past week, longer even. I checked all cymbals noumerous times, but all sounded from center to left (drummer perspective), or to the far right and back (cymbal 5 position from SD3) leaving a clearly audible gap at the cymbal 4 position. Today I already found 2 crashes that do fit the position of the cymbal 4 stand… Ive just been checking other kits I build earlier this year and Im always pretty meticulous when it comes to positioning, but now I find cymbals placed on the left side of the kit sounding from the right and the other way around and not just one, but several kits have 1 or 2 of those. This is way more than just being sleepy, late one evening, and making a mistake.

Okay, that was a long story, BUT… To me it seemed clear that things that were happening were not consistant with what the software should be doing. So I uninstalled all Toontrack software (not the sample library, I didnt want to download 273GB again unless absolutely necessary, of course), cleaned up all leftover folders, used CCleaner to clean up files and registry and rebooted. I downloaded new installers and reinstalled everything. Guess what!? The Metal Machinere kicks are much closer together, say less than a half foot, and this I can relate to my brain being tricked by the difference in color of the sound. The Metal Foundry kicks are dead-center and rides 1 and 2 now sound from their respective positions. I tried several things I noticed problems with before and non are still there! You wont believe how reliefed I am!

I thought to mention all the details for other people to compare, if they encounter simillar problems. Thanks a whole bunch for confirming that the behavior I saw was not a general problem, but something in my system. Im really happy Ive got things fixed, time to get back to my work.

Cheers!
Maarten

Mac Pro, Catalina, Studio One 5 Pro, Quantum2626

2

Thanked by: Henrik Ekblom and Erik

[Author]

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