rgarber(update 3/22) PLEASE NOTE: This thread took part over a couple of days and in subsequent posts, if you read down to my last posts you’ll see I learned something about EZ Keys that I get it now. If you’re undecided about EZ Keys like I was, you might want to read my 3/22 post where it discusses the Split tool which is not discussed in any detail in the manual, that I could find. I get it now. 🙂
My copy of EZ Keys is running fine. No problem there. My dilemma is I don’t get the point of the package. It’s coming across to me more like a Loop splicing tool where I’m limited to mixing and matching pre-played piano splices with some ability to change chords where needed. And I can import midi’s and all, that’s pretty easy. But where does the song development part come in at? Since I bought EZ Keys I reckon I’m stuck with it but even at that, I just don’t see where for someone familiar with writing software, where this program even has a purpose.
I’ve read the manual and it’s pretty short. Nothing against that but am I missing something? I gather I just can’t type in chords at will, right? And worse, I can’t apply the midi patterns to my own set of chords if the chord changes don’t match where I would want my changes to take place unless I find a pattern that matches my own, right? I did import a midi with no problems but I couldn’t figure out how to merge their playing prowess with the chords I desired.
If this stuff can be done, then great, but I can’t see how to do it without butchering the pre-made stuff first and I just wonder how long does it take to do that especially with a complex chord change. I also didn’t see where I could set markers so I could know where I’m at in the song either.
Trust me, after shelling out the bucks for EZ Keys, I’m not in the mood for venting. What I can’t see is how to use the program in a serious situation. Possibly working with very small clips and building a new song in a DAW, maybe?? I’m worried that to get any use out of EZ Keys that it will mean lots of workarounds and shoot, I got this other program, Band In The Box – and to get what I want to do with it, I got to do workarounds with it. I had hoped the way I understood the video promoting EZ Keys that this software would be an awesome if not only a song development platform but also a song accompaniment package as well.
I’m just totally lost with this package in that I think it’s just a Loop-like tool where you work with pre-set recordings and mix and match. No offense to the Loopers, just trying to understand what I bought (verses what I thought I was getting).
Rich
(update 3/22) PLEASE NOTE: This thread took part over a couple of days and in subsequent posts, if you read down to my last posts you’ll see I learned something about EZ Keys that I get it now. If you’re undecided about EZ Keys like I was, you might want to read my 3/22 post where it discusses the Split tool which is not discussed in any detail in the manual, that I could find. I get it now. 🙂
My copy of EZ Keys is running fine. No problem there. My dilemma is I don’t get the point of the package. It’s coming across to me more like a Loop splicing tool where I’m limited to mixing and matching pre-played piano splices with some ability to change chords where needed. And I can import midi’s and all, that’s pretty easy. But where does the song development part come in at? Since I bought EZ Keys I reckon I’m stuck with it but even at that, I just don’t see where for someone familiar with writing software, where this program even has a purpose.
I’ve read the manual and it’s pretty short. Nothing against that but am I missing something? I gather I just can’t type in chords at will, right? And worse, I can’t apply the midi patterns to my own set of chords if the chord changes don’t match where I would want my changes to take place unless I find a pattern that matches my own, right? I did import a midi with no problems but I couldn’t figure out how to merge their playing prowess with the chords I desired.
If this stuff can be done, then great, but I can’t see how to do it without butchering the pre-made stuff first and I just wonder how long does it take to do that especially with a complex chord change. I also didn’t see where I could set markers so I could know where I’m at in the song either.
Trust me, after shelling out the bucks for EZ Keys, I’m not in the mood for venting. What I can’t see is how to use the program in a serious situation. Possibly working with very small clips and building a new song in a DAW, maybe?? I’m worried that to get any use out of EZ Keys that it will mean lots of workarounds and shoot, I got this other program, Band In The Box – and to get what I want to do with it, I got to do workarounds with it. I had hoped the way I understood the video promoting EZ Keys that this software would be an awesome if not only a song development platform but also a song accompaniment package as well.
I’m just totally lost with this package in that I think it’s just a Loop-like tool where you work with pre-set recordings and mix and match. No offense to the Loopers, just trying to understand what I bought (verses what I thought I was getting).
Rich
rgarber@fizbin: I like this man’s thinking. That’s what I’m hoping too with the Jazz expansion that the included material is much more diverse and more indepth Jazz-wise.
Part of me is thinking here that we’re not too far from that already but for the life of me I can’t connect the dots yet how to do it. Let’s say you take Melodyne and convert some jazz piano to midi. Then if the midi is imported into EZ Keys and stored in the personal library, can’t then our own chord progression be applied and wouldn’t that give us the same thing? Trouble is I don’t know if you can separate the piano from the other instruments (bass and drums) without a mess on our hands.
Okay, so that doesn’t work. But there’s a ton of midi piano files out there where the rhythms could be brought into EZ Keys and then all we have to do is store the imported preset and then add our chord change to it.
I can’t see why this wouldn’t work…
rgarberI don’t think #6 is a valid point either but I think I know what he means to say. Think about it, many of us have been doing this digital/midi stuff for years, decades even, and we’re quite up to speed on what digital manipulation is capable of. So along comes an innovative idea like EZ Keys and yet there are features which we all can see which could have been included that for lack of a better way to put it, most posters describe that in failing to do so, they see EZ Keys as ‘pushed out the door‘ or ‘rushed.’
I also write software too and EZ Keys is obviously not rushed. IMO EZ Keys works, is well organized and mostly bug free. But I don’t want to over-reach and assume that just because I thought something else could have been added that EZ Keys is ‘unfinished’. To me, Jerjab is mixing together two different issues to express discontent with the program not reaching far enough in context with his own expertise.
With what I do commercially I run into this sentiment all the time. For example, I put out something that can be ‘modified’ through an included editor. In our genre people can take my work, add to it, and later boast I could’ve done more. Well, it takes months of planning and execution to get the base product released. In a few moments someone is boasting I could’ve done it better had I only given it five more minutes. It galls me to think to them that it only takes five minutes when it took months just so they have their five minutes of fame.
That’s the situation with #6. Without EZ Keys Jerjab wouldn’t have the basis to make his opinion. Toontrack has given us the base variation from which future variations will spring. How successful those variations is simply our test of patience as the program evolves. No guarantees but from what I see, this is gonna be an awesome product. Got my fingers crossed.
Whitten Yes. I agree.
One of the conflicts i have with music software is the complexity and number of features.
There are just a ton of features in most software products i will never use.
When you read the user feedback (I’m not talking Toontrack here) it’s usually “it would be great if it also did this”.
Yes, these requests are perfectly genuine. But if everyone got what they specifically needed in every product, every product would be hugely complex, and probably more expensive.
Now there are some features people have suggested for EZKeys that are utterly sensible. And customer feedback is the only thing that improves the products.
However I think it’s asking too much to expect every product to fulfill every one’s needs.
Juicy Getting very subjective there.
I dont get the,just Don’t Buy it attitude. I do, but it’s negative for the open discussion of the forum too
Perhaps ,SOME of the people who are bravely being negative here are doing TT a service of giving them HONEST real world fdbk .
rgarber@Juicy: I agree that the negativity has been helpful here too and considering I started this thread in a pretty negative tone (though I just didn’t get the point of EZ Keys at first and was quite incredulous), you betcha that it helped me to let off steam though the resulting posts and research sent me happily in a positive acceptance of EZ Keys. But I thought when I posted I was about to get reamed!
But to your point that negativity can be helpful, Jerjab did made one fatal flaw by speaking for the whole group. If he’d express his list as his opinion only, we all could agree to disagree. But his words were something like ‘the consensus here is.. 1,2,3 …’ and his assumptions doesn’t speak for me. For one thing, and I could go on about this for hours, negativity is fine when its kept in perspective, but the moment it becomes discouraging – I’ve seen people walk away from the very thing they needed all because negativity discouraged many from even trying.
I gave a nod on a couple of his points but the tenor of the post suggested that the concensus is that we leaned a bit towards the negative and cynical towards Toontrack and that didn’t represent my feelings towards Toontrack at all. And that’s just my opinion.
Jay CooverTrouble is I don’t know if you can separate the piano from the other instruments (bass and drums) without a mess on our hands.
If you have an Aebersold track, the drums and bass are in one channel, and the drums and piano are in the other. Trouble is, I’m not sure how Melodyne will handle the drums. If it assigns a pitch to every drum hit, you’ve got a mess to clean up.
SD 2.3 NY vol 2/Metal Foundry/C & V/Roots 1 & 2/Music City Latin Percussion/Funkmasters/The Classic/Jazz/Pop!/#1 Hits/Electronic/Twisted/Claustrophobic EZKeys 1.1 with all the trimmings
rgarberTrue, but once it’s converted to midi the pattern should allow the removal of those drum hits I would think. It’s not something I’ve tried yet, just speculating.
TomSo here are my comments since I have been an active critic several times before:
1) Many, including myself were expecting more from this product.
I only expected it to be able to remember when I had changed chords for a bar so that the next clip I dragged down would adjust to that. I could have tried the demo, but when you see something looking like a bird (BiaB and other arrangers) you expect it can fly. But EZK proved to be an ostrich.
2) What EZ Keys does well, it seems to do very well.
Sure.
3) There are more then a handful of what seem like obvious no brainer editing options missing.
Yes. The locking of chord sequences. Maybe chord inversions.
4) The current “Extensive Midi Library” is in reality, very small and limited.
I don’t care. I can import midi from loads of songs on the net and this works well. I bought this primarily as an arranger.
5) The history of Toontrack products suggest that the release of EZ Keys was possibly rushed and doesn’t really stand up to the past standards of the company.
Seemingly not as programming goes. At least it is as bug free as most TT products are. They just forgot to look ahead. What will they do with the next product in this line, an organ, strings, whatever? Once you have composed the piano part, you can’t lock the chord sequence so it’s gonna be very difficult to fit the next instrument into the composition. So in this sence it was rushed. They didn’t realize EZK’s future needs if adding locking of chord sequences is such a difficult programming task. (They said elsewhere it is).
6) Having to purchase future expansions only to bring the current state of the product up to expectations, would be a let down.
I have started worrying that I have to buy more instruments I don’t need just to get some useful libraries. I hope they will separate between intruments and midi. And they probably will considering how this has worked with TT’s drum products.
7) Pre advertisements don’t seem to mesh totally with what the product actually does.
Seemingly yes, now that you know what it can and cannot do. But I was fooled by my preconceptions from arranger software to think it was more powerful than it actually was.
jerry JaborekHey all, hope you had a happy Easter!
I’d like to again state that I own EZ Drummer, Superior (as well as expansions) and now EZ Keys. Yep, I coughed up the cash to buy EZ Keys, AFTER fully knowing it’s limitations. See, I still have faith in Toontrack. I at one time found EZ Drummer to be absolutely INVALUABLE to my song writing and production. In a word, I loved it. Once Superior came out, I upgraded to it, and it too became my goto drum programming tool to this day. Prior to those products I used other competing products, but Toontrack’s were just better. I usually stop by Toontrack’s booth at NAMM to pay respect and pick the guy’s brains as they are all great dudes. I just want to clarify that I’m in no way a Toontrack basher.
I am sorry if my post made me sound as if I was speaking for everyone here, as I am obviously not. It does however look like I do speak for some here regarding EZK, but the reaction I’ve received from my circle of fellow producer buddies here in So Cal is the same as mine. Most tried the Demo, and were either underwhelmed with it’s library, or simply couldn’t get past the de-tuning demo thing. Honestly, one of my buddies joked that if we ever needed a karaoke version of Motley’s Home Sweet Home or a Walking in Memphis, we were set.
As a song writer and producer, I wanted EZK to be first and foremost, a song writing tool. A way to take piano midi patterns that I myself could never perform (like beat patterns in Superior Drummer), and shape them into songs.
You know what? LOL, I just realized that it’s late, I’ve stated this all before and I’m just rehashing stuff. I’m gonna cut to the chase. I expected much more from the midi pattern library than what was given. Writing partners I know that checked out the demo were also caught off guard by how small the library is compared to the original version of EZ Drummers library. In what little they gave us, some patterns are unusable because they are already known songs…even if the keys are changed, un-usuable. Personally, I’d be happy as a clam if TT did nothing more than give us a free patch containing 50 more patterns, albeit no patterns that are already known hit songs. Seriously, who okay-ed putting in old song hits anyway?
Getting back to my original gripe…I feel that $150-$170 is just too much for where this tool sits now. Yet, I need tools like this. I will most likely buy expansions from TT because If I don’t, this program as it sits doesnt really help me much. Some of you guys don’t seem to care about the current library size and are more miffed at other issues, but personally that’s where it sticks me. I was excited and expected more.
Sorry if this reads like a 3rd grader wrote it, I’m dead sleepy. I don’t speak for all you guys here and didn’t mean to come off that way. It just bums me out that a company who created some of the very best song writing tools out there, fell short here. Most musicians don’t make a ton of cash, so I try to spend it as best I can.
I’ve beat my section of this dead horse into oblivion. I just hope TT will throw us a bone here and patches in a bit more for our $$$.
Jer
Whitten I’m less bothered by the midi library for two reasons.
1) I would rather edit something quite extensively to make it my own anyway.
So it’s likely I would find a handful of midi parts I liked in EZkeys and often start my songs from those same grooves. Dragging them into my DAW quite early, changing chords, re-voicing end deleting bits and inserting my own playing. I honestly do a ton of rewriting and editing in my DAW even when I’m just working with drums. I have Maschine, and never use their stock patterns, it just feels lazy, a compromise.
2) Although I’m far from a piano player, I can play 1 chord per part type stuff. I can also play melody parts myself.
My music isn’t piano driven, so piano is more of a supporting role.
Yes, I agree. The EZkeys library is quite basic, arguably limited. I can’t remember if the original EZdrummer library covered many more bases?
I’ve created midi for my EZX’s and it’s a ton of hard work, and I don’t think I’ve ever offered a broad based, almost one stop shop, library of drum grooves.
You could just go on forever and some customer somewhere would feel cheated – what no reggae grooves? No salsa grooves? No progressive rock grooves?
On the detuning. I feel your pain. Every 20 seconds is OTT, and actually even makes it hard to audition basic parts from the library,
JuicyGreat Post JerJabs !
Hope TT don’t dismiss all Direct & Honest FDBK,
Do you guys ever think maybe we too are very passionate about this Brand and have come to appreciate and now expect shining results from these guys.
EZ for its simplicity set a very high standard.
rgarber@Jerjab – Well I never thought your loyalties were an issue, but to me the list was fine only that it concluded many of us thought that same way. I’m certainly much more better off now that some features are better understood, I would say I’m kinda in the middle of all this but very much more pro EZ Keys than against it. And I’m not speaking that to suggest you’re against it, just saying that I can see where piano accompaniment is a feature, EZ Keys could fill a woefully lacking niche in the digital market. As as a song writing platform I still have doubts about EZ Keys in that respect until the two things mentioned before come to fruition. We need to be able to add chords from scratch without adding a preset first and be able to apply a preset accompaniment to that progression. Then and only then do I think EZ Keys lives up to the claim for being a tool for song writers. But I’m optimistic because like you I’ve had good results from EZ Drummer. I have Superior Drummer for a couple of years now but I haven’t used it yet. Still trying to get a handle on some other product that keeps coming out for upgrades for itself!
@Juicey – I’d a wrote something but it just would’ve been a waste of my time.
Juicy @rgarber – Haha .
The comparison to Ezydrummer is unfortunate ,It will come up of course but we all know EZK uses notes not just rhythmic content and has a whole different set of needs to be both ezy and anywhere near Great -locking chords has come up as the first feature on that side.
An excellent and thorough midi library in this case is crucial to make EZK have some usefulness as what it is aimed to be.
Heres a simple one.
Tedious and hard for non piano players stuff like good comping would be useful to everybody it doesn’t have to be restricted to a specific genre and release either ,its totally Universal and should be part of the base of this product .
Tom+1
Libraries with “backing piano” various simple chords with chops and transitions would be fine. Not too different from the drum midi. Some basic grooves and some “fills”. I do, however, believe it would be somewhat genre dependent.
… but for this to work you will need to allow me to decide the chord sequence and lock it.
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