rgarber(update 3/22) PLEASE NOTE: This thread took part over a couple of days and in subsequent posts, if you read down to my last posts you’ll see I learned something about EZ Keys that I get it now. If you’re undecided about EZ Keys like I was, you might want to read my 3/22 post where it discusses the Split tool which is not discussed in any detail in the manual, that I could find. I get it now. 🙂
My copy of EZ Keys is running fine. No problem there. My dilemma is I don’t get the point of the package. It’s coming across to me more like a Loop splicing tool where I’m limited to mixing and matching pre-played piano splices with some ability to change chords where needed. And I can import midi’s and all, that’s pretty easy. But where does the song development part come in at? Since I bought EZ Keys I reckon I’m stuck with it but even at that, I just don’t see where for someone familiar with writing software, where this program even has a purpose.
I’ve read the manual and it’s pretty short. Nothing against that but am I missing something? I gather I just can’t type in chords at will, right? And worse, I can’t apply the midi patterns to my own set of chords if the chord changes don’t match where I would want my changes to take place unless I find a pattern that matches my own, right? I did import a midi with no problems but I couldn’t figure out how to merge their playing prowess with the chords I desired.
If this stuff can be done, then great, but I can’t see how to do it without butchering the pre-made stuff first and I just wonder how long does it take to do that especially with a complex chord change. I also didn’t see where I could set markers so I could know where I’m at in the song either.
Trust me, after shelling out the bucks for EZ Keys, I’m not in the mood for venting. What I can’t see is how to use the program in a serious situation. Possibly working with very small clips and building a new song in a DAW, maybe?? I’m worried that to get any use out of EZ Keys that it will mean lots of workarounds and shoot, I got this other program, Band In The Box – and to get what I want to do with it, I got to do workarounds with it. I had hoped the way I understood the video promoting EZ Keys that this software would be an awesome if not only a song development platform but also a song accompaniment package as well.
I’m just totally lost with this package in that I think it’s just a Loop-like tool where you work with pre-set recordings and mix and match. No offense to the Loopers, just trying to understand what I bought (verses what I thought I was getting).
Rich
(update 3/22) PLEASE NOTE: This thread took part over a couple of days and in subsequent posts, if you read down to my last posts you’ll see I learned something about EZ Keys that I get it now. If you’re undecided about EZ Keys like I was, you might want to read my 3/22 post where it discusses the Split tool which is not discussed in any detail in the manual, that I could find. I get it now. 🙂
My copy of EZ Keys is running fine. No problem there. My dilemma is I don’t get the point of the package. It’s coming across to me more like a Loop splicing tool where I’m limited to mixing and matching pre-played piano splices with some ability to change chords where needed. And I can import midi’s and all, that’s pretty easy. But where does the song development part come in at? Since I bought EZ Keys I reckon I’m stuck with it but even at that, I just don’t see where for someone familiar with writing software, where this program even has a purpose.
I’ve read the manual and it’s pretty short. Nothing against that but am I missing something? I gather I just can’t type in chords at will, right? And worse, I can’t apply the midi patterns to my own set of chords if the chord changes don’t match where I would want my changes to take place unless I find a pattern that matches my own, right? I did import a midi with no problems but I couldn’t figure out how to merge their playing prowess with the chords I desired.
If this stuff can be done, then great, but I can’t see how to do it without butchering the pre-made stuff first and I just wonder how long does it take to do that especially with a complex chord change. I also didn’t see where I could set markers so I could know where I’m at in the song either.
Trust me, after shelling out the bucks for EZ Keys, I’m not in the mood for venting. What I can’t see is how to use the program in a serious situation. Possibly working with very small clips and building a new song in a DAW, maybe?? I’m worried that to get any use out of EZ Keys that it will mean lots of workarounds and shoot, I got this other program, Band In The Box – and to get what I want to do with it, I got to do workarounds with it. I had hoped the way I understood the video promoting EZ Keys that this software would be an awesome if not only a song development platform but also a song accompaniment package as well.
I’m just totally lost with this package in that I think it’s just a Loop-like tool where you work with pre-set recordings and mix and match. No offense to the Loopers, just trying to understand what I bought (verses what I thought I was getting).
Rich
Juicy Not a big difference either way, Forgetting that,
others have echoed similar issues and they have been noted.If he’s off the mark who cares.
TomORIGINAL: Whitten
It’s like comparing Superior to Maschine. You could give Superior 2 stars for not coming with a hardware sequencer box, and not including a couple of gigs of hip-hop and techno samples.
This is the core of my issue with Tombur.
EZkeys didn’t turn out to be BIAB, so he gave it a bad rating instead of just reviewing it for what IT IS
I didn’t say it should be a BiaB with several instruments, styles etc. What I said was:
“I bought this assuming it worked like a piano instrument that could use midi and then adjust it to chords the user had entered. Not so. The midi comes with its own chords. You can change them, but as soon as you insert another midi clip your entered chords will be lost. Nothing special about the piano instrument. So before the composition tool is improved, it is not very useful. Once it can work like Band in a Box, but inside your DAW, I will raise my evaluation to 4 or 5 stars.”
I said: “… once it can work like BiaB …”. Meaning you can choose your desired chords in advance, not as currently where you have to enter the same chords time af time to hear what the midi clip will sound like in your composition.
At least on the surface it looks like a simple thing to add. I understand it is not, but TT have recognized the request. Which is fine.
It is possible my headline “Not a Band in a Box” can be misleading. But for headlines to be short, you sometimes have to make very general statements and then let the reader find the details in the text.
rgarberIMO that this has been a good thread for helping some of us become better acquainted with EZ Keys, might we continue along that vein than get sidetracked on a review?
WhittenORIGINAL: tombuur
.It is possible my headline “Not a Band in a Box” can be misleading.
LOL. No kidding.
Anyway, on with getting better acquainted.
TomORIGINAL: rgarber
IMO that this has been a good thread for helping some of us become better acquainted with EZ Keys, might we continue along that vein than get sidetracked on a review?
Okay, here we go …
Yesterday I played around with some e-piano riffs in a Fleetwood Mac song (You Make Loving Fun). I first fed it to RapidComposer (one of the several composer programs I have). But had serious trouble getting RapidComposer to recognize the chords. It insisted on C11 for the first bar that clearly sounded like something based on a G to me.
So I gave it to EZK, and it immediately recognized the same bar as Gm7 which is what it should be. I could also transpose the bar to other chords with reasonable results.
Now working on with other bars I found that it matters a lot what you transpose into. Let’s say your base is C (I), then it may not sound good in F (IV) or E (IIIm). So I decided to transpose to those chords in the C-scale where the clips sounded best and tag them accordingly.
Sorry, but at the moment I am not sure if EZK can do chord inversions. Forgot to check late last night. But in case it can, maybe that could make some of the transpositions sound better. If not: Well, then I have another request for the EZK updates.
TomORIGINAL: juicy
Tag the chords ?
Yes.
If you are not familiar with the Nashville notation system, it would go like this in the key of C:
I = C, IIm = Dm, IIIm = Em, IV = F, V = G, VIm = Am, VII = Bdim
As I said some clips sounded better in F than in C, that means you should either tag it F or more generally IV (fourth) to tell you where it sounds best. If you change the key to E then E would be I and A would be IV, meaning this particular clip sounds best in A when you play in the key of E. Or in whatever key you prefer for your base it would sound best as IV.
Cygnus64ORIGINAL: tombuur
Now working on with other bars I found that it matters a lot what you transpose into. Let’s say your base is C (I), then it may not sound good in F (IV) or E (IIIm). So I decided to transpose to those chords in the C-scale where the clips sounded best and tag them accordingly.
Sorry, but at the moment I am not sure if EZK can do chord inversions. Forgot to check late last night. But in case it can, maybe that could make some of the transpositions sound better. If not: Well, then I have another request for the EZK updates.
1. Transpositions will be wrong much of the time. That’s not EZ Keys’ fault, just math. The program doesn’t “guess” where you’d like the next chord as far as octave, so there will be unnatural jumps in the line. Easy fix, just slice that measure into one “file” and change the octave in the properties box. You can even see the midi data in EZ Keys if you have good eyes, you’ll see if the next chord is in the correct octave or not.
2. Inversions: it does them kinda, kinda not. For starters it does slash chords (open the “details” box), so while that’s not an inversion it’s usually where the problem lies. As for the midi patterns, they are not all in root position. Therefore it can do inversions to an extent, we just can’t tell it “Cm 1st inversion” etc. If you have an inverted chord and transpose it, it will transpose inverted of course.
3. I’ve spent a lot of time with this thang. I’ve learned the most from looking at the patterns in notation view on my DAW (Sonar). Some interesting stuff happening: Some of the transposed chords end up with “phasing”. There will be two “b’s on one chord in unison, which will produce a phasing sound. I delete one of them. This happens quite a bit, I noticed from the beginning that there is a phasing sound at times, and when I looked at it I found out that it is literally phasing, sometimes 2 sets of identical notes on one chord. Easy fix, but an important fix too.
The notation view lets you see “phrases”. One might hear something a bit funky, but when they see it, it becomes clear. There are jumps in the voicings caused by transposing. While the “pick a chord, any chord” feature is amazing, it has a finite amount of accuracy since it is literal. A lot of the top notes of chords have large jumps, which is usually not wanted. Again, get the eraser in the DAW and get rid of them or move them. There are also passages that may have a 7 note chord followed by a five note chord. That creates voice leading that isn’t smooth. While all that might not be as EZ as people expected, it’s just how literal transposition works, and it might yield an acceptable result but a few minutes of looking at the staff will yield great results with smoother voice leading.
jerry JaborekAll of the rants here boil down to this:
1) Many, including myself were expecting more from this product.
2) What EZ Keys does well, it seems to do very well.
3) There are more then a handful of what seem like obvious no brainer editing options missing.
4) The current “Extensive Midi Library” is in reality, very small and limited.
5) The history of Toontrack products suggest that the release of EZ Keys was possibly rushed and doesn’t really stand up to the past standards of the company.
6) Having to purchase future expansions only to bring the current state of the product up to expectations, would be a let down.
7) Pre advertisements don’t seem to mesh totally with what the product actually does.
WhittenI could pick your often repeated claims apart line by line, but instead……
ORIGINAL: rgarber
IMO that this has been a good thread for helping some of us become better acquainted with EZ Keys, might we continue along that vein
Kip Count1) Many, including myself were expecting more from this product.
I’ll accept that. Personally, what I thought I was getting and what I got were one in the same.
2) What EZ Keys does well, it seems to do very well.
Couldn’t agree more. It proved it’s usefulness to me immediately.
3) There are more then a handful of what seem like obvious no brainer editing options missing.
I disagree. Though everyone’s needs are different, I get that. I think you should rephrase that as “There are more than a handful of editing options that I want/need that are not part of EZkeys feature-set”.
4) The current “Extensive Midi Library” is in reality, very small and limited.
Matter of opinion I guess. I think it’s pretty darned good. There could always be more, of course. But if you can’t get going with what they’ve included in the box, lack of MIDI patterns isn’t your problem.
5) The history of Toontrack products suggest that the release of EZ Keys was possibly rushed and doesn’t really stand up to the past standards of the company.
Again, I disagree. EZkeys seems as polished as anything they’ve released. Even more so in a lot of ways. And stability is a rock solid 100%, something that a lot of companies don’t necessarily strive for (at the very least, it’s seldom achieved). I think in future versions they could very well expand on and improve the software. Why wouldn’t they. But too say it’s rushed and doesn’t stand up to Toontrack standards is silly.
6) Having to purchase future expansions only to bring the current state of the product up to expectations, would be a let down.
Here I’m going to agree with you somewhat. And this is a direction that Toontrack has been heading further and further into. Where the real money is in add-ons and expansions. I hate what they did with the EZmix expansions, and their ridiculous price points. And my gut tells me that expanding EZkeys will be no different. These will not be cheap add-ons. And if you do need expansions in order for it to fulfill you needs, then EZkeys might not be worthwhile to have around. That’s how I’m feeling about EZmix. I know I’ll never expand on it at the current expansion prices. And the actual uses I’ve found for it so far are few and far between.
7) Pre advertisements don’t seem to mesh totally with what the product actually does.
For me, this goes back to your item #1. I feel like it’s exactly what they advertised. But at the end of the day, maybe there’s features/abilities that I just don’t need, therefore it hasn’t even occurred to me that anything might be missing.
Mac Mini M1 | Studio One 6 | PreSonus 68c | EZD3
rgarberI tried pretty hard last night to type up a response like you did and I came up with pretty much the same conclusions. The one I would address, #6 and I’m only addressing this in general and not to any specific poster, and only because I’m within the game market, this kind of marketing strategy is happening all over the place. I think it depends on the product. Something like EZ Keys, well, I’m all for the expansions. It doesn’t mean I have to purchase every expansion they put out. I like Jazz so I’m only going to purchase the Jazz stuff. So to me, cost is not an objection.
The game in which I am an independent 3rd party developer for, the amount of extras we can produce for the original game is endless. I mean world-wide endless like in the thousands. The game is always taking hits from non-users who don’t understand the genre and they have this idea that to have the game means they have to purchase all the expansions. It’s not that at all. You just purchase what you want. But golly trying to make them understand…. (we need bigger smilies here…)
So why people make the ‘total cost of expansions’ argument is lost on me. I’m assuming by expansions we’re talking future add-on styles, so I just plan to get what I need and thus cost is not an issue for me.
And Toontrack does a lot of 50% off sales so you can always wait for those…
Jay CooverI like Jazz so I’m only going to purchase the Jazz stuff. So to me, cost is not an objection.
Straying from topic here a bit…while I’m not as disappointed with the MIDI parts as some, I will say for the jazz stuff, I expected to hear some more straight up comping, something like you’d hear on an Aebersold CD. Something you could plug into almost any jazz song, given that you’d have some things that spanned between Ballad, Bossa, and Bebop. I don’t feel like that’s really there. The Latin stuff is covered pretty basically, but the uptempo swinging jazz stuff is simply not there. That would have been pretty cool.
Another digression: To pull this off we need to be able to float up and down through inversions, not just octaves. The workaround is to move the MIDI file into your host and grab the top note and move it to the bottom or visa versa with the bottom note…play back…rinse, repeat.
SD 2.3 NY vol 2/Metal Foundry/C & V/Roots 1 & 2/Music City Latin Percussion/Funkmasters/The Classic/Jazz/Pop!/#1 Hits/Electronic/Twisted/Claustrophobic EZKeys 1.1 with all the trimmings
Whitten Well as we are discussing it….
The claim the product doesn’t match the advertising seems totally moot to me.
You can download a decently functioning demo before you make up your mind. If you think it doesn’t match the advertising, or more to the point, doesn’t match your expectations and needs….. don’t buy it.
The claim that Toontrack has rushed the release of EZkeys is just a negative opinion, not really a fact.
I watched many weeks of betatesting. The comments from betatesters were thorough, sometimes positive, sometimes critical.
The notion that the experienced community of Toon betatesters sat back while an unfinished product hit the market is just wrong…. it didn’t happen.
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