michaelfjacobIf you take a look at the attached screen shots, I loaded a midi file from the Ballads collection. Based on the chord progression, it is clear that this is the key of G major, but the software identifies it as C major. As seen in the second screen shot, I switched the key signature to G major it changes the chords to a progression that is actually D major. Can anyone explain to me whats going on there? Thank you!!
If you take a look at the attached screen shots, I loaded a midi file from the Ballads collection. Based on the chord progression, it is clear that this is the key of G major, but the software identifies it as C major. As seen in the second screen shot, I switched the key signature to G major it changes the chords to a progression that is actually D major. Can anyone explain to me whats going on there? Thank you!!
ScottI’ll add…
Some of this may be expectations for things that are not how EZkeys works. For example, this:
“For example, I want to write in the key of Em (the relative minor of G Major). Em should be the tonic/root. I set the key to Em and drag in Midi from the Library, and all the progressions are in the key of G. Thus, a I-IV-V in Em should be Em-Am-B Major. But I get the chord progressions relative to the G Major scale: G-C-D. The Em is being treated like the vi chord in the key of G, not the I chord (tonic). G is being treated like the root/tonic chord.”
As I stated earlier, if you just drag MIDI from the EZkeys MIDI browser, it will not make a Major chord play minor just because you set the Key Signature to E minor. The MIDI is still unaltered. In your example, the I chord is still the I chord. It doesn’t automatically change to E minor.
Now, that is a basic workflow thing.
Let me explain how I use EZkeys.
I’m a guitar player. I create chord progression on my guitar. I develop them on guitar. When I find something good enough to be a song, I’ll go to EZkeys and go to the Song Track. I’ll click the Add Chord button and manually lay out my song and chord progression. I’ll set the Key to match what I’m doing and my chord progression. I know the feel and groove of the key part I want so now I’ll try using the EZkeys browser. I’ll select, say, the verse chords…click the ‘Use Browser MIDI’ button and start auditioning the MIDI. DOING THIS METHOD WILL MAKE THE EZKEYS BROWSER MIDI FOLLOW MY CHORD PRGRESSION NO MATTER WHAT THE ORIGINAL MIDI WAS. So, if the original MIDI was Major and my chords are minor totality, the EZkeys engine will try to make that happen. It has varying amounts of success. Sometimes is great. Sometimes, because of the way the original MIDI was, it doesn’t work. Then I try something else.
The above is different from the way you are doing it. Selecting your key (Eminor) and the dragging the Browser MIDI to the Song Track. You need to manually add your chords in…click the Use Browser MIDI…and then click through the MIDI.
You may know all of this already but maybe not and it’s a MAJOR (yes, pun intended) workflow application that in my opinion, sets EZkeys apart.
Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
3
Thanked by: prafle, Shootie and michaelfjacobmichaelfjacobI’ll add…
Some of this may be expectations for things that are not how EZkeys works. For example, this:
“For example, I want to write in the key of Em (the relative minor of G Major). Em should be the tonic/root. I set the key to Em and drag in Midi from the Library, and all the progressions are in the key of G. Thus, a I-IV-V in Em should be Em-Am-B Major. But I get the chord progressions relative to the G Major scale: G-C-D. The Em is being treated like the vi chord in the key of G, not the I chord (tonic). G is being treated like the root/tonic chord.”
As I stated earlier, if you just drag MIDI from the EZkeys MIDI browser, it will not make a Major chord play minor just because you set the Key Signature to E minor. The MIDI is still unaltered. In your example, the I chord is still the I chord. It doesn’t automatically change to E minor.
Now, that is a basic workflow thing.
Let me explain how I use EZkeys.
I’m a guitar player. I create chord progression on my guitar. I develop them on guitar. When I find something good enough to be a song, I’ll go to EZkeys and go to the Song Track. I’ll click the Add Chord button and manually lay out my song and chord progression. I’ll set the Key to match what I’m doing and my chord progression. I know the feel and groove of the key part I want so now I’ll try using the EZkeys browser. I’ll select, say, the verse chords…click the ‘Use Browser MIDI’ button and start auditioning the MIDI. DOING THIS METHOD WILL MAKE THE EZKEYS BROWSER MIDI FOLLOW MY CHORD PRGRESSION NO MATTER WHAT THE ORIGINAL MIDI WAS. So, if the original MIDI was Major and my chords are minor totality, the EZkeys engine will try to make that happen. It has varying amounts of success. Sometimes is great. Sometimes, because of the way the original MIDI was, it doesn’t work. Then I try something else.
The above is different from the way you are doing it. Selecting your key (Eminor) and the dragging the Browser MIDI to the Song Track. You need to manually add your chords in…click the Use Browser MIDI…and then click through the MIDI.
You may know all of this already but maybe not and it’s a MAJOR (yes, pun intended) workflow application that in my opinion, sets EZkeys apart.
Hey Scott. THAT is best suggestion I’ve heard yet. Agreed, it isn’t always perfect, but I was just tinkering with this workflow and it is a bit easier to use than splitting clips and working the chord wheel in some cases. Thanks for posting this.
ScottI’ll add…
Some of this may be expectations for things that are not how EZkeys works. For example, this:
“For example, I want to write in the key of Em (the relative minor of G Major). Em should be the tonic/root. I set the key to Em and drag in Midi from the Library, and all the progressions are in the key of G. Thus, a I-IV-V in Em should be Em-Am-B Major. But I get the chord progressions relative to the G Major scale: G-C-D. The Em is being treated like the vi chord in the key of G, not the I chord (tonic). G is being treated like the root/tonic chord.”
As I stated earlier, if you just drag MIDI from the EZkeys MIDI browser, it will not make a Major chord play minor just because you set the Key Signature to E minor. The MIDI is still unaltered. In your example, the I chord is still the I chord. It doesn’t automatically change to E minor.
Now, that is a basic workflow thing.
Let me explain how I use EZkeys.
I’m a guitar player. I create chord progression on my guitar. I develop them on guitar. When I find something good enough to be a song, I’ll go to EZkeys and go to the Song Track. I’ll click the Add Chord button and manually lay out my song and chord progression. I’ll set the Key to match what I’m doing and my chord progression. I know the feel and groove of the key part I want so now I’ll try using the EZkeys browser. I’ll select, say, the verse chords…click the ‘Use Browser MIDI’ button and start auditioning the MIDI. DOING THIS METHOD WILL MAKE THE EZKEYS BROWSER MIDI FOLLOW MY CHORD PRGRESSION NO MATTER WHAT THE ORIGINAL MIDI WAS. So, if the original MIDI was Major and my chords are minor totality, the EZkeys engine will try to make that happen. It has varying amounts of success. Sometimes is great. Sometimes, because of the way the original MIDI was, it doesn’t work. Then I try something else.
The above is different from the way you are doing it. Selecting your key (Eminor) and the dragging the Browser MIDI to the Song Track. You need to manually add your chords in…click the Use Browser MIDI…and then click through the MIDI.
You may know all of this already but maybe not and it’s a MAJOR (yes, pun intended) workflow application that in my opinion, sets EZkeys apart.
Hey Scott. THAT is best suggestion I’ve heard yet. Agreed, it isn’t always perfect, but I was just tinkering with this workflow and it is a bit easier to use than splitting clips and working the chord wheel in some cases. Thanks for posting this.
Agree. Much easier for me anyway. My songs are mostly pop in genre so I’m not dealing with complex jazz progressions, and I’ve used this workflow on dozens of tracks where hiring a piano player was not in the recording budget and b every client was amazed at the results.
Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
1
Thanked by: praflemichaelfjacobKey signatures don’t presuppose tonal centers. They contain 7 tonal centers within them. Tonal centres are defined by the circle of fifths. Key signatures define where they play in.
jord
I was following you when you said key signatures don’t presuppose tonal centers and they contain 7 tonal centers. I lost you when you said tonal centers are defined by the circle of fifths. I’m hoping you can help me understand that with this simple example. We all know that the circle of fifths relate all 12 chromatic tones to key signatures, both the major and the relative minor in sequential fifths. If I am playing a chord progression of G#m F#m EM7 C#m, I am obviously basing this on G# Phrygian, so based on the mode, I know the tonal center is G#. If I were to write this out in standard notation the key signature would be E (or we can also call it C# minor since the chords are predominantly minor). So far so good on the circle of fifths and the notational key signature. No issues either when using the underlying mode to identify the tonal center. We also agree that key signatures don’t presuppose a tonal center, so how do I use the circle of fifths to determine G# is the tonal center for this progression?
Bear-Faced CowOn a standard circle of fifths, rather than the enhanced version that is on EZ Keys, you would get a more visual representation of your progression. It takes a bit of practice, but in time you can ascertain the tonal centre out of the visual representation. You can also determine the direction of the progression, as well as derive numerous cadences from it.
The real beauty of it within EZ Keys is the ability to change things around, from direction to cadences in the chord selection tool, which is as mentioned above, a more enhanced version of the circle of fifths. Visualizing the direction of a progression would take a bit of practice in that you would have to not see the relative minor part and use your imagination to map the progression out on the wheel.
When I am not using EZ Keys, I often find myself practising this with a mobile app on iOS called Tonally. It is also a decent song writing up when I am not near my computer.
My only regret is that I wish that I had listened more carefully and applied this when I was taught as a kid.
jord
rick3390This is still an issue! Will it get fixed? I am so tired of constantly dealing with this issue…
michaelfjacobHey Rick. The short answer in my humble opinion is “no”.
The long answer is: Considering the fact that this issue was reported over 5 years ago, the root case as been identified as an error in the key definition within the midi files, there have been no updates to the software or midi packs to address this issue and potential workarounds have been published in this topic; I personally think this has a very low priority for the engineering team and I don’t think it will ever be fixed. We will likely be condemned to deal with workarounds, but I do want to express my appreciation to everyone who has tried to help by posting them. You and your posts have been very helpful!
That being said, even though I was the one who initially reported this issue, this will be the last time I post here. This conversation has gone down multiple rabbit holes. Some of them are about defining and recreating the issue, some on workarounds and others debating general music theory attempting to say this isn’t even a bug at all. Obviously some of those were more helpful than others. For all the reasons above I think this issue will never be fixed and continuing the conversation is pointless, so I’m going to bail out.
Thanks everyone for great conversation and your support us in trying to get this thing fixed. I hope you have better success than I did, but I’m done with it. Please don’t be offended when you don’t see any more responses from me.
rick3390No response required. Just venting a bit. it is frustrating that some are correct and some are not. When in a bit of a time crunch with a complicated structure it is a PIA. I think the key that is returned on some styles is completely random so just when you think you have the “key” to the key it is still completely incomprehensible. I have almost every EZ keys set of Midi files and wish I had just gone a different way. Should change the name to ToonCraps. I hope they ask me if I would recommend to a friend, LOL.
rick3390But it is still in the Key of E. A modality is not a key, EZ Keys should return the key of E if that is what you instructed, it doesn’t. POS.
1
Thanked by: JOHN BALL
Billy 86Hey Rick. The short answer in my humble opinion is “no”.
The long answer is: Considering the fact that this issue was reported over 5 years ago, the root case as been identified as an error in the key definition within the midi files, there have been no updates to the software or midi packs to address this issue and potential workarounds have been published in this topic; I personally think this has a very low priority for the engineering team and I don’t think it will ever be fixed. We will likely be condemned to deal with workarounds, but I do want to express my appreciation to everyone who has tried to help by posting them. You and your posts have been very helpful!
That being said, even though I was the one who initially reported this issue, this will be the last time I post here. This conversation has gone down multiple rabbit holes. Some of them are about defining and recreating the issue, some on workarounds and others debating general music theory attempting to say this isn’t even a bug at all. Obviously some of those were more helpful than others. For all the reasons above I think this issue will never be fixed and continuing the conversation is pointless, so I’m going to bail out.
Thanks everyone for great conversation and your support us in trying to get this thing fixed. I hope you have better success than I did, but I’m done with it. Please don’t be offended when you don’t see any more responses from me.
Well said.
SD3, EZD, EZ Keys 1&2, EZ Bass. Win10, i9/9900, all SSDs, 64g RAM, Cakewalk, Studio One
Burke IngraffiaYes, it’s annoying that the workflow is different from one MIDI pack to another. It’s an annoying bug.
preamp 135From the moment you added the Dynamic Piano feature everything sound so bad
Just a big headache to find a normal sound and problematic frequencies
Your customer service is disappointing and does not provide an appropriate and tolerant response
The piano has become to be so disappointing than ever
The whole update of all the software is very disappointing
Starting to regret buying all this plugins
Sucks
ScottFrom the moment you added the Dynamic Piano feature everything sound so bad
Just a big headache to find a normal sound and problematic frequencies
Your customer service is disappointing and does not provide an appropriate and tolerant response
The piano has become to be so disappointing than ever
The whole update of all the software is very disappointing
Starting to regret buying all this plugins
Sucks
What product are you talking about?
Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
1
Thanked by: JOHN BALL
JOHN BALLThanks for taking the time on this issue. The explanation and back and forth on key centres etc although frustrating for you all to go through was helpful in getting my head around it. It’s true that the software isn’t subjective in how it represents chords played together in a certain order and when you think about what key you are really in, depending on what chord is next, it could be a different one all hinging on what you are playing over it (minor feel, major, diminished). I will explain how the glitch frustrates me .The way I use EZKEYS and EZBASS along with SD3 is in a songwriting capacity. Sometimes, the main idea will come from EZK , the flexibility you can have with chords, inversion’s etc is amazing. I will have a chord progression in EZK and a beat in SD3 to save time (instead of playing the bass just yet) I’ll add EZB. I drag the midi piano/keys into EZB and let it add a bassline. Almost always , EZB has the correct chords but the KEY is wrong. If you were teaching or something this would be a big problem because explaining why the chords and even the bassline that was created is correct but the key in EZB is different than the one in EZK would be impossible , it makes no logical sense to be honest. One would think that when the chord progression that was dragged into EZB, it would also default to the key that is being dragged/ imported in and keep the actual chords notes as it does now.
Audibly, it is good but even though the two GUI are linked together and one is set to follow. Thy show different keys. It’s ok just working on ideas but when you say, want to raise the key or lower it to accommodate your voice or a collaborator, this is where it gets frustrating. You raise the key a semitone or two, on the EZK GUI it shows the key you dragged it up or down to, ezb is not effected by this, you have to manually go in and adjust it up or down the semitones you need and because visually , it shows a different key overall from EZK it can get confusing especially if you enter the key manually , you have to adjust in semitones rather than key. If EZK is in D Maj after the key adjustment and you type in D major in EZB, it doesn’t change the chords / bassline (which are correct btw) to the same as EZK, it does it based on what the Song key is referencing in EZB.
In will say, you can get confused really easy with this . It turns this magic writing tool into a frustrating mess. I think the two GUI should link as a far as key signatures to and if there ever was a way to have the system offer a master key choice , that would be great .if you sent this to someone to collaborate, you would need to tell them to disregard the KEY . Kind of backwards..
someetimes I export the tracks or a portion and run it into mixed in key to analyze the key, tempo etc so I know what key it’s in without doing the math everytime . But even when I do that, how can I get EZK and EZB to show the same chords they have now but change the KEY field in EZK and SONG KEY in EZB to show the same overall key?
one thing to add, if you dint have the correct key in EZK but the chords are ok it even adds another frustrating level , EZK and EZB sound great ,the actual chords, bassline etc, are good but each has a different overall key which is different that the actual key it is in.
sorry for the long winded question but I wanted to let you know of this frustration and see if I am missing something or if there is a workaround fix?
The more instruments you add like this and more midi packs it is going to get frustrating for songwriters who just want a simple tool to write with and get ideas .nothing squashes creativity like going down software or hardware rabbit holes,
1
Thanked by: prafle
Nicholas ChanHi There,
I drag over an A minor progression with sus to Ezkeys Key signature @ A minor and result with C minor. Strange to me that Cm is not part of the chord scale, even changing between A minor and C Maj key signature don’t change a thing.
I am not a music train person and bought this vst hopefully can help me on my missing. But this products just started to confuse me further.
Please help..
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