michaelfjacobIf you take a look at the attached screen shots, I loaded a midi file from the Ballads collection. Based on the chord progression, it is clear that this is the key of G major, but the software identifies it as C major. As seen in the second screen shot, I switched the key signature to G major it changes the chords to a progression that is actually D major. Can anyone explain to me whats going on there? Thank you!!
If you take a look at the attached screen shots, I loaded a midi file from the Ballads collection. Based on the chord progression, it is clear that this is the key of G major, but the software identifies it as C major. As seen in the second screen shot, I switched the key signature to G major it changes the chords to a progression that is actually D major. Can anyone explain to me whats going on there? Thank you!!
Bear-Faced CowThe key signature is just that… A key signature. It is nothing more than a set of rules within a musical staff. All you were doing from going from G to Em is changing the relative representation and not the tonal centre. Aside from the fact that your supposed progression is more correct for a major Phrygian/Harmonic Minor mode than in an aeolian/natural minor mode, a progression of G major is still correct. Changing your tonal centre is what the circle of fifths is for.
you are also looking at the key signatures rather myopically, since there are 7 different tonal centres within a key. Starting a song in D, for example, does not mean that the key signature is D. Whether you have represented the key signature in G or E minor has no bearing on that D tonal centre.
jord
ScottIn my experience with EZkeys, the thing that I’ve had to understand is that if the original MIDI is say, G major, and you want your song in E minor, simply dragging the MIDI from the Browser to the Song Track will not automatically flat all the 3rds for you and make the original G major progression a minor progression. That would have to be done using the Chord Wheel and manually adjust the chords to your liking.
So, if the original MIDI has a major tonality, it will still have a major tonality when dragged to the Song Track. Personally, I think a new tag should be implemented so you can filter major/minor (or all 7 modes actually) so if I’m writing a sad minor ballad, I won’t have to click through a bunch of Major progressions to find a minor one. Or, adjust a Major progression manually.
Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
Bear-Faced CowA single search filter would be ambiguous. We would probably need a couple of search filters. One to indicate major, minor, diminished, etc. The other filter would be more for the model type. Not all Minor scales (eg., Dorian) are sad, and not all major scales (eg., Lydian) are happy-go-lucky.
jord
michaelfjacobBilly86, I’m not quite clear on why you are expecting a B major chord in the key of E minor. The major 3rd would be D# which would be an accidental in the key of Em, but your larger point is well taken.
The names E Aeolian and E minor are frequently used interchangeably, but since EZ Keys uses E minor and doesn’t provide options to select the other modes, let’s stick with that. The notes contained in the G major and E minor scales are identical, but G major has the tonal center on G and E minor has its tonal center on E. That is modes 101, right? Therefore, I think it is reasonable to expect EZ keys to translate G C D to Em Am Bm when using the key selector to switch keys from G to Em. Since EZ Keys doesn’t do that, I don’t see what practical purpose this feature serves for a user other than documenting one’s intention to use a minor key vs a major key, but that could be the subject of a completely different thread. Let me stay on point for this one.
I suspect that EZ Keys isn’t concerned with tonal center, but only the notes present in the scales, regardless of their degree within that scale. Not being a programmer for the product I can’t say that is a fact. I can only assume that based on the product’s behavior, but to Scott’s point, after changing the key from G to Em, you would also need to use the chord wheel to change the G chord to an Em chord and so on for the rest of the chords in the progression. It is a little more time consuming, but it will work and result in the prgression you are looking for.
Bear-Faced CowSorry but I don’t agree. Stating whether a key signature is either G or E minor is merely an enharmonic representation. If I had a progression going from Bm C Am D7 G, I would not expect that to change since the tonal centre is Phrygian regardless of the representation.
nor, would I expect it to change any progression that I input into easy keys with any browser Midi superimposed.
jord
michaelfjacobI certainly respect your right to see it differently, but I will say that over the years I have been very fortunate. I have had opportunities to discuss and study this topic with a few men who are way more experienced than myself, including the likes of Bruce Bouillet, Paul Gilbert, Joe Satriani, Doug Doppler and Andy Timmons. This is what they taught me.
Enharmonic equivalents are identical notes differentiated only by name based on key. You can’t tell the difference between an F# and Gb by ear because they are the same pitch. You can only differentiate them by name based on the key/scale that contains them. The G and Em scales do contain the same diatonic notes, but they have completely different tonal characteristics that you can differentiate by ear.
I would agree that Bm C Am D7 G is B Phrygian, but to say that you can also call it A Dorian (or any of the other modes stemming from G major) because they are merely enharmonic representations would be in error because those modes have distinctly different tonal characteristics driven by the tonal center. To say otherwise would result in the whole concept of modes being moot. I do appreciate the discussion though!
Bear-Faced CowAll you are really doing here is preaching to a choir and the use of names (guitar heroes and GIT alumni) don’t really impress me, considering I grew up in the music business dealing musically with the who’s who of the Canadian music scene, as my mother was a music agent. I got to learn things they don’t really teach you in school thanks to them, which I am starting to share with my granddaughters as they are learning to play piano.
However, that’s not the point…
The point is that regardless of whatever mode I have used, I would not want it to change regardless of whether I said the key is G or Em. Just as we have stated, the tonal centre is defined by the degree used in the scale. And if I am centring my entire progression around B minor (hence Phrygian), I would want to keep that tonal centre, just as I would want to keep a Locrian progression.
EZ Keys behaves pretty much the same as Logic Pro with respect to key signatures. I am willing to bet that it is no different with many other DAW’s.
jord
Billy 86Billy86, I’m not quite clear on why you are expecting a B major chord in the key of E minor. The major 3rd would be D# which would be an accidental in the key of Em, but your larger point is well taken.
Point taken… I’ll use the B7 as an accidental for a stronger resolve to the Em root chord. Going from a Bm to a B7 is easy in the chord tool. What’s not easy (and this is EZ Keys 😉 — is having to manually do all the work, manipulating every chord for an entire song — particularly given the 90s-era GUI (but that’s a whole other conversation and a years-long well of of frustration in the forum.)
There seem to be no shortage of interpretations of the issue of the Key Tool. And that’s fine. Thanks for all the replies. For me, I think it comes down to TT managing UX expectations. I’m frustrated because, my expectations, based on language in the the Operation Manual, is not being met.
Page 11 of the EZ Keys Operation Manual: “Last to round out the MIDI Browser audition feature, note that you may elect to hear the MIDI material in their original key, or in the key set in the Song Track (emphasis mine). The default is to hear the EZ Keys smart transpose version (emphasis mine), aligned to the Song Track…” I don’t think its a huge jump in reasoning or programming logic that, if you hear the MIDI material smartly transposed in the preview, one could then say, yep, that’s what I want, and drag it to the Song Track in its smartly transposed state.
That’s not happening. I’m choose Em key and hearing it relative to the key of G. As a guy with a background in technical writing, based on the information in the Operation Manual, I would expect it to do what it says. So, I’m curious: Given that it’s not doing what the manual describes, what is the Key tool supposed to do? What is its purpose? How does everyone use it to aid their composing?
A final thought… for me, underlying the various user frustrations with the software, big and small, is that TT has demonstrably abandoned developing it. For years. Though they keep saying things are being addressed and fixes are coming. This is a thread started six years ago. TT said they were looking at it six years ago. Being real, I get it: from a business standpoint, they’re focused on what is probably more lucrative: EZ Bass, EZ Drummer, Superior Drummer 3, all of which I own and think are amazing. On the EZ Keys front, which holds the promise of being such an amazing composition tool, all we get are new MIDI packs to continue to buy and stick into the same hamstrung software.
Just be honest with us, TT. If this is how it’s going to be, if this is as good as it’s going to get with EZ Keys– whether the GUI, or these persistent potholes — just tell us and relieve us of our misplaced hope. Man, do I ever hope I’m wrong (see, there I go again… hoping!). I hope an amazing new version with lots of features transitioned from EZ Bass and Superior Drummer is just around the corner. I’d even pay an upgrade fee, like I just did with IK Multimedia upgrading from Amplitube 4 to 5 for all the cool new features and fixes, and like I do with Native Instruments. But, apparently for now, all I can do (which it seems is their default suggestion, and what many of us in this forum do and share and is much appreciated) is to keep figuring out work-arounds to make up for their disinterest. Geez, now that I said it, it sounds like a dysfunctional co-dependent relationship. Please, love us! Hey, there’s a song in there somewhere! 😉 Keep making music! It dulls the pain. Cheers!
SD3 3.4, EZK2.1.3, EZ Bass 1.3.1, Win11, i9/9900, all SSDs, 64g RAM, Cakewalk, Studio One
michaelfjacobBilly86, you hit the nail on the head and I agree 100%. The way I use the key selector is to simply select the major scale that is Ionian relative to the key that my composition is in. If I understand him correctly, I believe that is the point Jord is trying to make. The notes contained in both scales are all the same. The chord progression that you program will define the modal property regardless of what the key selector tool says. In the end this results in a midi that has all of the scale tones that are diatonically correct for my composition. I recently finished up a piece in G Dorian. I set the EZ keys to F major. Wrong from a theory perspective, but what else could I do? EZ Keys doesn’t offer me Dorian, so the next best thing is F major since the “palette” of notes is identical. I get a final result that sounds the way I intended it to and the listener isn’t going to know that my software thinks I’m in F. Kinda irritating, but it works. Cheers!
michaelfjacobJord, I’m not trying to impress anyone and I do apologize if I came across that way. I was just trying to establish a foundation for the information I was offering. It comes from some of the most reliable sources in the business, not some mumbo jumbo I picked up on YouTube. Nothing more. I see so much misinformation on the internet that confuses new music students that I try to help them understand how the theory really works and how to apply it in a practical manner. I’m not implying that you are new to music. Just making a general statement, so no offense intended.
Having drunk the Pro Tools Kool Aid I can’t speak to what Logic does, but regardless of the DAW, if I am looking at a G C D progression in G major within EZ Keys, change the key to Em and the chords stay the same, I have an issue with that. It is telling me that I’m in a minor key and the progression doesn’t even contain a minor chord. More specifically it is saying that I’m in Em even though the Em chord is completely absent from the entire progression.
If you’re ok with that, I’ll certainly respect your right to see it that way. Personally, I won’t say that is ok, nor would I teach that to a student. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Bear-Faced CowI think the confusion here is between key signatures and modes. Key signatures are only represented in standard notation by their root or relative minor. That is common standard notation. In the real world, your G Dorian song will still be represented by stating the key signature is either an F or D minor. In fact, it would have been more common to say that the key signature was D minor using a G Dorian feel to it. This is not incorrect by any means. Neither would saying that the key signature was F. I am willing to bet that your conversations would have included the fact that the modes themselves are degrees of the major scale. The modes themselves are the tonal center. The key signature is a notational representation of your tonal center. You would be correct in that stating that your G Dorian piece being B-flat Lydian would be incorrect due to its tonal centre. However, stating that the key signature is F or D minor is very much correct and has no bearing on the Dorian tonal center. So yes, if I were to change the representation of my modal center, that does not mean that I want the modal centre to change with it.
considering that logic has behaved rather consistently with standard notation conventions since 1988, I don’t see this as an issue at all with EZ keys and using the circle of fifths to change your tonal centre would be the proper way to do it.
jord
michaelfjacobAh Ha! Therein lies break. Doesn’t it always boil down to the words we use and their interpretation? Yes, I agree completely that there is nothing in standard notation that would indicate a mode, other than that which is implied by the actual melody and chord arrangement. Yes, on the staff, my example would appear to be in F, with a singular Bb in the key signature if that is the only thing you’re looking at. The chords and melody would identify the tonal center on G, so modally it is G Dorian. All of the people I have studied under use the mode name in this context synonymously with the key of a composition. Of course, that is very different from a key “signature” as represented in staff notation, which is modally agnostic. I guess my brain didn’t go there since the conversation was in the context of how this software handles keys and their impact on chord progressions in the midi files for a composition, not how a composition would be represented in staff notation, so thank you for clarifying that subtle yet critical difference.
Billy 86In my experience with EZkeys, the thing that I’ve had to understand is that if the original MIDI is say, G major, and you want your song in E minor, simply dragging the MIDI from the Browser to the Song Track will not automatically flat all the 3rds for you and make the original G major progression a minor progression. That would have to be done using the Chord Wheel and manually adjust the chords to your liking.
So, if the original MIDI has a major tonality, it will still have a major tonality when dragged to the Song Track. Personally, I think a new tag should be implemented so you can filter major/minor (or all 7 modes actually) so if I’m writing a sad minor ballad, I won’t have to click through a bunch of Major progressions to find a minor one. Or, adjust a Major progression manually.
Thanks Scott. If not to choose a key for the song, which presupposes a tonal center with accompanying scale architecture based on a transposition, what is the purpose of the Key tool? What should I expect it to do? This what I don’t understand based on what the Operation Manual says about smart transposition. What exactly is that?
SD3 3.4, EZK2.1.3, EZ Bass 1.3.1, Win11, i9/9900, all SSDs, 64g RAM, Cakewalk, Studio One
Bear-Faced CowKey signatures don’t presuppose tonal centers. They contain 7 tonal centers within them. Tonal centres are defined by the circle of fifths. Key signatures define where they play in.
jord
ScottIn my experience with EZkeys, the thing that I’ve had to understand is that if the original MIDI is say, G major, and you want your song in E minor, simply dragging the MIDI from the Browser to the Song Track will not automatically flat all the 3rds for you and make the original G major progression a minor progression. That would have to be done using the Chord Wheel and manually adjust the chords to your liking.
So, if the original MIDI has a major tonality, it will still have a major tonality when dragged to the Song Track. Personally, I think a new tag should be implemented so you can filter major/minor (or all 7 modes actually) so if I’m writing a sad minor ballad, I won’t have to click through a bunch of Major progressions to find a minor one. Or, adjust a Major progression manually.
Thanks Scott. If not to choose a key for the song, which presupposes a tonal center with accompanying scale architecture based on a transposition, what is the purpose of the Key tool? What should I expect it to do? This what I don’t understand based on what the Operation Manual says about smart transposition. What exactly is that?
Transposition, as far a I understand it, and how I believe the manual understands it, is to change or transpose pitches/chords by a constant interval.
I’ll speak to Major and minor as those are the 2 modes available in EZkeys…
So, from D major to A Major. Or A minor to G minor. However, if the original MIDI is Major tonality and you want it Minor, that isn’t constant interval transposing.
I’m terms of EZkeys, that type of augmentation is accomplished by the Chord Wheel as mentioned before and not done automatically.
That’s just my take on it not being a college music Major in music theory or have studied with learned music theory masters.
Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor
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