[Digital Performer] Confused about midi throughput doubling in Digital Performer

[toodamnhip]

I have been having a blast with EZPLAYER and ez drummer.

After working for awhile to learn it all, I am confused about when to record to MIDI in Digital Performer and MIDI doubling.
Here’s the problem:
Ezplayer is playing through live into 3 different drum machines and all is well. Each MIDI track is record enabled to allow ezplayer to go into it and then into the various drum machines.

But if I record ANYTHing in Performer, either another midi part, or audio etc, the midi that was going into the various tracks from ezplayer, gets recorded into DP’s midi tracks that are sending to my drums VIs. and on next playback, it is doubling with the live midi coming from explayer. I can of course, have the play enable buttons OFF on the midi tracks, which means that upon 2nd and subsequent playbacks there is no doubling, but each record pass of lets say a guitar etc, adds yet another layer of the same midi. After 10 passes, I will have 10 layers of the same drum parts. If I accidentally play enable one of those drum tracks,,BOOm, it;s gonna be a mess. It seems kind of silly to have to record layers and layers of midi onto the midi drum tracks.

WHat is the strategy for this?
I know I could also record the midi once and then shut off the midi inputs from ez player and just run the midi from Performer, but if I want to go back into ez player again, I will have to erase the midi info from performer and record enable the various drum midi tracks again.
I think I am not quite understanding the best strategy as to how to do all of this?

Thanks everyone@

OS 10.6.8/Digital Performer 7.24/Midi Timepiece AV/MOTU 828 mkII/Waves/Blue Tubes/Ozone /T Racks/Tons of Vi’s including EZ drummer

Topic

[Rogue]

I am hardly a DP expert, but I doubt it is not behaving like the large majority of DAWs out there and you should have a possibility to record-disable any track… if you can confirm what version of DP you are running (7.24?), I can eventually check it out and see if I can make sense of it.

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[toodamnhip]

Yes, DP 7.24. But this doesn’t really matter as MIDI in DP hasn’t changed in ages so you’d have to go back to DP 4 to find any difference in MIDI.

As far as record disabling a track

---

If I record disable a track then I no longer hear the LIVE ezplayer performance.
The DP midi track has to be recored enabled in order to here the live ezplayer parts and continue to make edits, etc..
There is no “through” mode wherein a midi track can act like an aux input. If there were, then yes, I could here the live ezplayer and hit record on let’s say a guitar part, WITHOUT recording the midi from ezplayer into the midi track.
As it stands now, when I hit record for any reason in DP, it records the live ezplayer data into the DP midi track that was formerly monitoring the through put of ezplayer. But now, that same midi track contains midi IN DP and that doubles with midi from ezplayer creating a nice sounding..yuck!. Each subsequent recording pass will add more midi to DP and after a few passes, it will be 4- or 5 of the same notes on top of each other, plus the live ezplayer performance. If I shut OFF the play back button in DP, then I will not hear the DP midi and will successfully hear the ezplayer live performance. However, each record pass will add yet another layer of un needed midi into those record enabled track in DP, even with their outputs shut off.
I don;t know what would happen if 30-40 takes of midi piled onto itself in a DP midi track while monitoring live ezplayer, (with the DP midi play buttons off) and recording. For one thing, if I ever accidentally turned the midi play button on, it would be a horrendous noise.
I suppose I could periodically erase the midi data, but this seems silly to have to do.
For now, my solution has been to just record the midi, even if it isn;t final ezplayer data, and shut off the record enable data in the DP tracks that ezplayer was feeding into.
Then , when I hit record for a guitar part, there is no addition data being recorded into the DP midi tracks as they are no longer record enabled, just playing back. And, when I want to resume work in ezplayer, I erase the midi in the DP midi track and go back to live through put from ezplayer.
But there needs to be a more elegant solution I think.

OS 10.6.8/Digital Performer 7.24/Midi Timepiece AV/MOTU 828 mkII/Waves/Blue Tubes/Ozone /T Racks/Tons of Vi’s including EZ drummer

[Rogue]

well, first of all, I can only state that has nothing to do with us 🙂

… but to give you some background information that may help, before I head to the studio this afternoon and have a look in situ: what happens with the Audio Unit, which is what DP is addressing (though some versions wrap it as a MAS plug-in, which may complicate things), is that EZplayer pro will be broadcasting itself to CoreMiDI and appear as a device/port in your DAW. So, by setting the MIDI input on your track to ‘none’ (or similar) then no MIDI should be recorded to it. This should not prevent the routing out from the track to your VI in any way.

That’s what I would expect anyhow, in unspecific terms… like I said I haven’t used DP in a very very long while, but I would be very doubtful that there is no easy solution to your problem, and investigating how and what input the MIDI track will respond to in real time is probably key to finding a resolution.

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[toodamnhip]

I found no new midi track or anything like that in the core midi window.
I also tried to set the input on the midi track to “none”. There is no such option in DP. I tried setting it to a non function midi channel and that did not work either.
Within the parameters of my problem, the solution would appear to be that ezplayer could route directly to ezdrummer without the need for a midi track in between them.
But I cannot see how this will work as your manual states that ezplayer is not an audio plug in, but instead, it is a midi player, therefore it needs to route into a midi track. VI’s in DP cannot receive midi directly into their plug in windows and need a midi track to route into them.
So, unless I am mistaken, there needs to be an interim midi track between ezplayer and any VI.
EZ drummer, being an audio plug in, has NO input choices available in DP, only output.
So yes indeed, please do further research on this when in your studio or wherever it is you do such things. As for now, there seems to be a need for a midi track; DP cannot route NO midi to a midi track; and, if the midi input is routing other than to receive from ezplayer, there will be no ezplayer data going through to the ez drummer VI or any other VI.

OS 10.6.8/Digital Performer 7.24/Midi Timepiece AV/MOTU 828 mkII/Waves/Blue Tubes/Ozone /T Racks/Tons of Vi’s including EZ drummer

[Rogue]

right, I am clear on your predicament now. And yes, there needs to be an middleman MIDI track for EZplayer to drive EZdrummer/YFDS (in DP).

I have no solution to stop recording MIDI to the track, at least in DP 7 (well I’ve just been looking at DP6, and will check the latest version later on to see if things have changed in a positive way). You CAN however stop playback of the recorded MIDI, in effect working around your problem of duplicating the Live input received from EZplayer pro.

… this may not be elegant but it is very simple, just record-enable the track but play-disable it. This will work in that the EZplayer pro stream with reach your VI, but any MIDI on the track will not. At least that’s what happens for me.

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[toodamnhip]

I am not sure I get what duplicating the track will do, (I’ll have to ponder that one), but yes, I already mentioned play dis-abling the midi track. However, like I mentioned before, what happens when 20 guitar takes create 20 overdubs of midi onto the interim midi track?
Of course, I could set DP to NOT be in overdub record mode, at which point each new midi take would erase the one before, as a matter of fact, that might also keep any midi doubling from occurring! Pretty interesting thought. However, I almost ALWAYS work in overdub record mode. Changing that would be too big an inconvenience, plus risk deleting good data and midi in the event of accidents etc I am really used to overdub record mode.

Let me ask you something, how do other DAWs work with Ezplayer?
Do they have some sort of ability to create a midi thru track or do their VI’s receive midi directly?
I am curious. Please let me know what DP cannot do that is making this process less than ideal?

By the way, I am absolutely loving your product man.
I am a long time established producer with major cuts etc,
And I have always busted my ass to make drum tracks.
This is really cool stuff and I will most likely upgrade myself all the way to your flagship system before long.
I am having a blast working with ezplayer AND ez drummer. And once I get it all slamming, I will mix and match with programs like Ocean way.
One other question?
All the expansion drummer packs for ez drummer, and the expansion midi packs, they all sound the same in superior?
Are they the same at first but then way more editable? Or, if you use the ezdrummer expansion kits, do you lose all the edibility inherent in Superior?
And one last thing.
The concept for EZplayer could easily be used on many Vi’s such as Basses, orchestras, anything!
Have you guys thought of expanding this product to it’s infinite degree with libraries of midi performances of other instruments, all using the ezplayer format, (modified as need to Bass etc)?
COULD BE VERY COOL MAN!

OS 10.6.8/Digital Performer 7.24/Midi Timepiece AV/MOTU 828 mkII/Waves/Blue Tubes/Ozone /T Racks/Tons of Vi’s including EZ drummer

[Rogue]

ORIGINAL: toodamnhip
Let me ask you something, how do other DAWs work with Ezplayer?

I believe DP is one of the very rare DAWs out there that does not have an hybrid MIDI/Audio type of track (typically called ‘instrument track’ as in DP, confusingly enough) where VIs can be hosted. In other words, most other sequencers will record MIDI straight onto the track you have your VI instantiated, with no middleman track.

That said, complexity can occur in that EZplayer is not a sampler and therefore by necessity reside on a different track than ‘YFDS’ (though there are DAW using a ‘rack/stack’ paradigm that allows a direct chain of VIs to be made on a single track), but in effect the catch 22 you noted (reminded me perhaps?) in DP does not exist elsewhere (that I can recall).

All the expansion drummer packs for ez drummer, and the expansion midi packs, they all sound the same in superior?

MIDI is MIDI, so granted that minor (musical) substitutions should be expected from expansion to expansion, Superior is no different than EZdrummer and you can play back the MIDI available with one EZX/SDX through another (to a great extend, it goes without saying that things like Latin Percussion or Electronic drums are not interchangeable).

In term of the Sounds, there are additional benefit to hosting EZX-s in Superior compared to EZdrummer: mix and match in a single instance, stacking drum sounds, pitching and otherwise ‘mangle’ sounds, access to refined bleed levels where leakage exists (typically snare bottom, OH and Ambience, though this is dependent on expansion).

The concept for EZplayer could easily be used on many Vi’s such as Basses, orchestras, anything!

I shall remain tight lipped in respect to future development…

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[toodamnhip]

Ok brotha, well, you let me know if you think of a better workaround.
And I still have the other problem with 3rd party midi libraries playing back different in the tracks than in the preview top section.
As far as that tight lipped future of ezplayer, consider me a big fan of ez and down for anything I could do to help…, I have been a beta tester, and you’re welcome to hit me as your fav DP beta tester guy if you’d like…:)

I wonder if my brainstorming insanity would make you as crazy as I am..lol..

Thanks for your time by the way,

Dave

OS 10.6.8/Digital Performer 7.24/Midi Timepiece AV/MOTU 828 mkII/Waves/Blue Tubes/Ozone /T Racks/Tons of Vi’s including EZ drummer

[Rogue]

we always need people who want to be involved with testing for the sake of making better products so feel free to send an email at betatoontrack•com (it will be forwarded to me), shortlisting your equipment and a summary of your activities relevant to music (engineering skills, instruments played, previous testing, etc).

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[toodamnhip]

I will indeed contact you on the beta testing. I just bought the DKFH expansion and I am totally blown away. I am just loving your product man. I am going to save so much time with this amazing stuff, wow! I already made good drums before with lots of elbow grease. I am doing a rock record very soon and I am thinking I might not need to bring in the drummer I was going to use, we’ll see,….sorry drummers..lol.
But I do have one question.
I noticed that in ezdrummer, there is that humanize function.
Do the grooves in ezplayer utilize that humanize function/ feel? I see no option for it in ezplayer. I tried switching it in and out of the ezdrummer plug when it was being triggered by ezplayer and heard no difference.
I hope the humanize is the default feel coming from ezplayer…is it?
My initial tests seem to indicate that the grooves from ezplayer are slightly stiffer and not humanized compared to the same grooves directly fro the ezdrummer plug WITH humanize turned on. If I am right, I find this disappointing. I didn’t go crazy doing this test so I could be wrong. Please advise.

OS 10.6.8/Digital Performer 7.24/Midi Timepiece AV/MOTU 828 mkII/Waves/Blue Tubes/Ozone /T Racks/Tons of Vi’s including EZ drummer

[John]

EZdrummer Humanize is only affecting how samples are picked from the sample pool, not groove data.

BR,
John

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[toodamnhip]

Hmmmm,
Interesting.
I could have sworn that when I dragged them into midi tracks with and without humanize, there were playback differences.
SO you are saying that for ex, a snare with humanize on will play at the exact same timing point as a non-humanize snare, but with humanize ON, each hit of the snare triggers a different snare sample to sound different and less robotic?

Also, does the ezplayer work with this? Meaning, if the ezdrummer plug in has humanize ON, ezplayer will also trigger different snares on each hit, not as a result of anything ezplayer is doing, but as a result of the ezdrummer plug in being set to humanize?

I think I just answered my own question by manually playing ezplayer with and without humanize, but you can verify if you like
By the way, I sent in my beta email…:)

Dave

OS 10.6.8/Digital Performer 7.24/Midi Timepiece AV/MOTU 828 mkII/Waves/Blue Tubes/Ozone /T Racks/Tons of Vi’s including EZ drummer

[Rogue]

yes, any MIDI stream, be it from within the internal groove player found in EZdrummer, EZplayer pro, or coming from a MIDI track in your DAW will humanize the playback.

Humanize in EZdrummer is global but is in effect a collection of different ‘rules’ that apply at different velocities and circumstances. You have access to those discrete options in Superior, so if you are interested in the finer details, I recommend you read up the relevant chapter in the Superior manual, whether or not you own it…

I will review your application next week and we will be in touch. Have a great weekend!

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[toodamnhip]

Cool man, yeah , that humanize can be a mixed blessing unless recorded to audio. I often make tons of stem mixes, depending on how big and well budgeted an artist is. If allowed, I make tons of stems for live shows. Obviously, having midi randomness isn;t good when trying to make pass after pass, not wanting drum variations beyond the original random hits in the main mix. The passes might have no strings or guitar, bass and drums etc….
I would suppose one need to either record the midi to audio and then do audio edits of one;s favorite randomness sections, or, have the random triggering locked to time code so that, for ex, verse 2, beat 4, always hits with the same randomizer. Does the superior drummer get into it in that much detail? If not, is the randomness generation locked to play start such that if I start play back from bar one, it will always randomize the same way each pass?
Also, i am bsy tonight buying expansion pakc. Are the kit pieces interchangeable from one kt to another? If not, why not?
For example, the drums from hell snares are a bit thin and edgy for non metal styles I would like to be able to use a snare from another kit in the drums from hell etc.
Thanks for your answers to all of this by the way. And let me know if I am bugging you with too many questions…

Just inquisitive and always thinking of new ways to use things.

OS 10.6.8/Digital Performer 7.24/Midi Timepiece AV/MOTU 828 mkII/Waves/Blue Tubes/Ozone /T Racks/Tons of Vi’s including EZ drummer

[Rogue]

well, you talk of ‘randomness’, and I talk of ‘humanize’… I definitely think there is a big difference. All Toontrack products are optimized to make sure the variations from one pass to another is not detrimental to the result. While YMMV, after all anything that introduces some kind of variable is liable to subjectively or not subjectively deteriorate or improve playback, but I believe it is indeed extremely subjective in the case of our products.

Mixing and matching kit pieces, as stated earlier when I reviewed briefly the difference between EZdrummer and Superior, is a Superior feature. You can however use a separate instance if you wish, but it is a lot easier with Superior and has many other possibilities like combining (stacking) sounds and dialing exact response curves for those hybrid instruments. As to why that is so, it’s akin to ask why EZdrummer does not do everything Superior does 😉

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

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