Crash cymbals: stuck in overheads?

[LeanderL]

Are the crash cymbals stuck in the overheads channel? I can assign a custom “crashes” mic to group all my crashes to a custom mixer channel, but then there won’t be any overheads signal. Is it possible to assign all crash cymbals to a custom channel AND keep them in the overheads? I don’t want them to be just in the overheads.

SeelenPuls ~ Poetic metal from Austria: SeelenPuls.at
Grummelgnom ~ Sociocritical metal from the forest: Grummelgnom.at

Topic

[drumjack52]

I’ve never been able to group the crashes to a mic other than the overheads. No problem with all the other kit pieces and at least for the other cymbals there will still be signal to the overhead mics/channel if you also do a ‘custom’ routing of the direct mics to a mixer channel.

Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

[LeanderL]

When you select a kit piece, you can assign it to a new mixer channel, e.g. “crashes”. Then you can move all crash cymbals there. However, they will disappear from the OH channel.

SeelenPuls ~ Poetic metal from Austria: SeelenPuls.at
Grummelgnom ~ Sociocritical metal from the forest: Grummelgnom.at

[drumjack52]

LeanderL wrote:

When you select a kit piece, you can assign it to a new mixer channel, e.g. “crashes”. Then you can move all crash cymbals there. However, they will disappear from the OH channel.

Please tell me how you are able to move the crashes to another mic channel? I’ve never been able to. Everything else in SD3 and SDX’s I can move the direct mics to another channel and they still stay in the overheads. It’s the crashes that I’ve never been able to do so. Historically there’s things you’ve come on here asking about that you’re not quite clear on what you want or how you’re supposedly doing things.

Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

[LeanderL]

Either I don’t know how to do this or it does not work. I want to have a dedicated ride bus and ride out for my two rides. The default ride channel goes to OH bus, then OH out. I’ve created a ride bus and a ride out. The rides redirect to the ride bus…but still there is a signal in the overheads although the ride goes to the ride bus and ride out.

About the crashes: Right-click a crash -> route mic channels -> new.

SeelenPuls ~ Poetic metal from Austria: SeelenPuls.at
Grummelgnom ~ Sociocritical metal from the forest: Grummelgnom.at

[drumjack52]

All you’re moving is the direct mic for the rides – there will always be signal in the overhead mics. That’s what overhead mics are for – to capture/get a general overview of the drum kit.

Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

[LeanderL]

Ok, I don’t understand the mixer…even the default kit and mixer is strange. The default Death & Darkness -> death mit has two splashes. They are about the same volume in their close mics, but the OH of the second one is 3DB louder. Why? Shouldn’t every splash have the same volume at x velocity?

If I use the same close mic, e.g. -16db as the default uses, the OH hits of the second splash are 3 DB louder…in order to have the same loudness for both splashes in the OH channel, I have to reduce the second splash in its close mic…but then the second splash’s close mic is some DB lower.

I am obsessive and want every china and crash to use the same volume for the same velocity….without 3db differences.

EDIT Maybe it is because I edit volume in the “Drums” section by adding the kit pieces, “level”?

SeelenPuls ~ Poetic metal from Austria: SeelenPuls.at
Grummelgnom ~ Sociocritical metal from the forest: Grummelgnom.at

• This post was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by LeanderL.

[Philip Angus]

When mics are placed in a room for overheads etc, they are naturally going to record at different volumes (db) because of the simple nature of it. It’s not about the volumes, it’s about the different sound and ambience that is captured. When drums are miced up close it’s easier to set levels, but you can’t set levels for all drums with overheads as they are capturing all drums in the room, with emphasis on the cymbals. I’m not aware of being able to single out cymbals on their own. Unless I’m completely misunderstanding your point, you simply use the mixer for this or re-direct the mixer outputs to individual channels in your DAW.

[drumjack52]

LeanderL wrote:

Ok, I don’t understand the mixer…even the default kit and mixer is strange. The default Death & Darkness -> death mit has two splashes. They are about the same volume in their close mics, but the OH of the second one is 3DB louder. Why? Shouldn’t every splash have the same volume at x velocity?

If I use the same close mic, e.g. -16db as the default uses, the OH hits of the second splash are 3 DB louder…in order to have the same loudness for both splashes in the OH channel, I have to reduce the second splash in its close mic…but then the second splash’s close mic is some DB lower.

I am obsessive and want every china and crash to use the same volume for the same velocity….without 3db differences.

EDIT Maybe it is because I edit volume in the “Drums” section by adding the kit pieces, “level”?

• This post was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by LeanderL.

Your issue is you don’t understand the way a physical drum kit is mic’d. Specifically the overheads which as I said are meant to capture the whole kit. You’ll never get kit pieces to be the same levels in overheads – that’s something people who mic drum kits for a living have struggled with since recording began. The best one can hope for is a compromise for the wanted overall sound and some kit pieces will tend to be a bit louder than others. I’d suggest searching YouTube for drum micing tips/procedures to see what real world producers do. SD3 and it’s content is recorded by real world producers using techniques they use on a daily basis and each producer has their own method of working. Sure it can be manipulated to a certain extent but there’s certain things that can’t be changed like the panning of kit pieces in overhead mics simply because of what overheads are meant to do. It’s also why when you route a kit piece direct mic to a different mixer channel there is still sound in the overheads.

Of course you could always just not use the overheads mics and mute them.

Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

[Scott]

You can balance level of each cymbal (as well as the other kit piece bleeds) in the overhead channel in the Mixer.

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[LeanderL]

Thank you!

I’m getting closer to fixing my issue. I’ve added a tambourine that doesn’t have a real overhead signal. It’s always barely audible…I’d need to set the level to +12.

Yes, working without room etc. is easier. I used to have simple samples for kick, snare, toms, cymbals…one file…easy to mix, but thin sound.

SeelenPuls ~ Poetic metal from Austria: SeelenPuls.at
Grummelgnom ~ Sociocritical metal from the forest: Grummelgnom.at

[drumjack52]

LeanderL wrote:

Thank you!

I’m getting closer to fixing my issue. I’ve added a tambourine that doesn’t have a real overhead signal. It’s always barely audible…I’d need to set the level to +12.

Yes, working without room etc. is easier. I used to have simple samples for kick, snare, toms, cymbals…one file…easy to mix, but thin sound.

Tambourines aren’t all that loud to begin with. If it’s to be a featured part the producer would probably designate a mic just for that. You’d do well to search YouTube videos on recording different things (like how to mic, etc.). Percussionists will often have their own mic setup. As always don’t judge something in solo mode but with all the other pieces playing.

Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

[LeanderL]

Thank you!

And should I use the special OH channel that is created when placing an xdrum OR delete it and use the default OH channel? e.g. when adding a china or cowbell, a special x china OH channel or one shot OH will be created. I could either use that OR assign the default OH channel to it. Which is better?

I tried both solutions…they sound alike but for the panning. The default OH use the their default, but you can freely pan custom OH mics, e.g. my second ride is 76 to the left, but the default OH are still to the right…so no custom setups are supported. When I use the created xdrum ride OH, I can freely set up that one…so 76 to the left for the close mic and 76 to the left or a certain area to the left for the xdrum ride OH…which one is more realistic?

If a ride is on the very left of the drummer, it should be left in my opinion? .. and it is easier to mix if something is left or right in the close mic and has the same position in the overheads…and not somewhere else.

SeelenPuls ~ Poetic metal from Austria: SeelenPuls.at
Grummelgnom ~ Sociocritical metal from the forest: Grummelgnom.at

• This post was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by LeanderL.

[drumjack52]

I don’t get a ‘special OH’ channel when I create a tom/rack tom – just routing to the usual OH mixer channel in addition to the usual direct mic. Creating a china gives me a  mono OH and it’s own stereo OH channel. Tambourines give me a tambourine OH channel and the direct mic channel. To be frank I don’t mess with the pannings especially with the OH mics. Nor the direct mics for that matter. The panning orientation will change depending on whether you’re using drummer or audience perspective. I tend to mix from an audience perspective. Most producers will mix drums so that they’re in the middle of the sound field unless going for some kind of weird effect. And as I keep saying the OH mics are not meant to give spacial auditory cues – the meat of the sound should come from any direct mics IMO.

Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.1
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

[LeanderL]

Thank you!

SeelenPuls ~ Poetic metal from Austria: SeelenPuls.at
Grummelgnom ~ Sociocritical metal from the forest: Grummelgnom.at

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