Andrew PayneHi All,
I am keen to understand if anyone has seen an improvement in Hi Hat performance using E-Drums with the new 3.2.5 settings. There have been lots of comments on this forum about a lack of smoothness in transition between open articulations when using an electronic hi-hat and E-Drums. This is particularly the case with Yamaha RHH135 as the Yamaha module (eg DTX900) only has a single open and single closed articulation and MIDI note for each of edge and bow.
I have not been able to test these new settings in SD3 as I am still in COVID 19 lockdown in Australia and my module is in for LCD screen repair – I cannot get it back whilst in lockdown.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated – especially from any Yamaha RHH135 users but even Roland feedback will help. I have been using a Hi-Hat fix from MintberryCrunch which has worked really well however it does require running through a DAW so does not work in standalone SD3.
It looks as thought the new “Openness Transitions” setting in E-Drums/MIDI-In has been developed to help this issue. The “E-Drum Optimized” setting says “Changes articulation only when the pedal is moving up or when a new note is played”. Does it also work when the pedal is moving down to smooth the transitions from fully or partly open towards closed articulation ?
Has anyone got any feedback and does it improve the realism in playing a Yamaha RHH135 or Roland electronic hi-hat ? cheers Andrew
Dell Precision 7730, i7 6 Core 2.6 GHz, 128GB RAM, 1TB SSD and 3 x 2TB SSD, Windows 11, Cubase Pro 14, SD3 plus a variety of SDX's and EZX's, Orchestral Percussion, EZBASS, RME BabyFace Pro FS and KRK V4 monitors. Modified Yamaha DTX900, DTXPRESS4 and Edrumin10 triggering SD3. Yamaha pads/cymbals and Roland VH-10 HiHat. PDP Maple acoustic kit for live playing.
Hi All,
I am keen to understand if anyone has seen an improvement in Hi Hat performance using E-Drums with the new 3.2.5 settings. There have been lots of comments on this forum about a lack of smoothness in transition between open articulations when using an electronic hi-hat and E-Drums. This is particularly the case with Yamaha RHH135 as the Yamaha module (eg DTX900) only has a single open and single closed articulation and MIDI note for each of edge and bow.
I have not been able to test these new settings in SD3 as I am still in COVID 19 lockdown in Australia and my module is in for LCD screen repair – I cannot get it back whilst in lockdown.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated – especially from any Yamaha RHH135 users but even Roland feedback will help. I have been using a Hi-Hat fix from MintberryCrunch which has worked really well however it does require running through a DAW so does not work in standalone SD3.
It looks as thought the new “Openness Transitions” setting in E-Drums/MIDI-In has been developed to help this issue. The “E-Drum Optimized” setting says “Changes articulation only when the pedal is moving up or when a new note is played”. Does it also work when the pedal is moving down to smooth the transitions from fully or partly open towards closed articulation ?
Has anyone got any feedback and does it improve the realism in playing a Yamaha RHH135 or Roland electronic hi-hat ? cheers Andrew
Dell Precision 7730, i7 6 Core 2.6 GHz, 128GB RAM, 1TB SSD and 3 x 2TB SSD, Windows 11, Cubase Pro 14, SD3 plus a variety of SDX's and EZX's, Orchestral Percussion, EZBASS, RME BabyFace Pro FS and KRK V4 monitors. Modified Yamaha DTX900, DTXPRESS4 and Edrumin10 triggering SD3. Yamaha pads/cymbals and Roland VH-10 HiHat. PDP Maple acoustic kit for live playing.
MintberryCrunchIf the lowest possible “Splash Sensivity” setting is still not enough to fix it (which will definitely be the case when opening fast after a Pedal Chick): the only chance to get rid of “Open Pedal” activity and at the same time maintain the option to play Hihat Splashes is switching it on and off after your needs while playing. I provide a special fix (LINK). The SD3 “E-Drum Optimized” transmuting settings have nothing to do with it BUT you will need my transition fix (which comes along with my OpenPedal (fast stepping) fix) because the SD3 “E-Drum Optimized” transmuting settings won’t work with my OpenPedal (fast stepping) fix 🙂
The fact that you get a “Closed Edge” note as crosstalk when playing Pedal “Chicks” is a little bit weird -> I would expect Bow notes but maybe this is also a little bit different with new digital VH-14D hihat. Go to module settings and try to set “Noise Cancel” to value 2 or 3 and see if the Closed Edge note vanishes. (I can look into this issue in an online session if you can’t get it right).
Andrew PayneThanks Damian for your detailed explanation – very helpful and clears up a lot. Unfortunately I don’t have my Yamaha DTX900 module with me to be able to “test” these new settings as it is in for repair and I cannot access it due to a long and protracted lockdown ! I don’t use hi-hat splashes so this is not a concern for me. What I do want to be able to do is a fast cymbal roll on the hi-hat and gradually lift the pedal all the way up and then gradually close it all the way down to generate a foot chick (or closed pedal note) with a continuous roll. When I do this I want to have a relatively smooth transition from fully closed to fully open and then again a smooth transition back to fully closed. Is this likely to give a smooth transition or is it always going to sound like an electronic replication of a hi-hat due to the “sharp” transition that occurs at whatever CC value generates the next articulation. And if so am I likely to have a less noticeable transition with all the 8 available articulations (not including closed pedal) or is it better to not have as many articulations ie say 4-6 of these rather than all 8 (where 8 are actually available).
I cant wait to get my module back so I can experiment with these settings but in the meantime would love to hear your thoughts or those of any other e-drummers. Obviously the acoustic hi hat is the most difficult instrument to replicate with electronic hi-hat triggers using cc values along with edge/bow and bell articulations (where available – bell not an option with Yamaha RHH135). cheers, Andrew
Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.2.5
Operating system: Windows 10With the 8 articulations loaded performance should be very good and in normal playing situations extremely close to acoustic hi-hats. With the later Superior Drummer 3 libraries a lot of effort has gone into capturing the transitions from closed to open that give the most realistic performance with e-drums. During editing and development of these libraries we also A/B with acoustic hi-hats to try to get the most authentic performance (some of the hi-hats in the later SDX’s are from my own personal collection so this makes the process of A/B’ing a little easier). Of course we are always looking at new technology and ways of improving things but I really believe the new E-drum Optimised setting provides a great alternative to the default especially with moving hi-hats.
Regarding cross-fading, we have discussed this in the past but playing two samples simultaneously could potentially create extra problems such as phase and comb-filtering issues. It is also a compromise in its own way as you are doubling the sound of physical interaction of the two cymbals at the mid-point. That’s not to say it isn’t an area worthy of further exploration.
Hi Damian,
Just wondering if Toontrack has given any consideration to crossfades for Hi Hat articulations. I still find that I cannot get truly realistic Hi Hat performance on both gentle/gradual opening and closing unless I use the MintBerry Crunch Hi Hat fix through my DAW – this is an excellent option but obviously does not work in standalone SD3 .
I am keen to understand if Toontrack is looking at developing a more realistic Hi Hat performance – especially for Yamaha type Hi Hat controllers that are not as sophisticated as the latest Roland options.
This is the only thing that limits me from getting a 100% real acoustic sound from SD3 and fixing this would absolutely put SD3 at the “Top of the tree”. Thanks, Andrew
Dell Precision 7730, i7 6 Core 2.6 GHz, 128GB RAM, 1TB SSD and 3 x 2TB SSD, Windows 11, Cubase Pro 14, SD3 plus a variety of SDX's and EZX's, Orchestral Percussion, EZBASS, RME BabyFace Pro FS and KRK V4 monitors. Modified Yamaha DTX900, DTXPRESS4 and Edrumin10 triggering SD3. Yamaha pads/cymbals and Roland VH-10 HiHat. PDP Maple acoustic kit for live playing.
Damian BluntI would guess that the Mintberry Crunch fix bypasses the Superior Drummer 3 internal hi-hat engine to a degree by using the incoming CC4 from the e-drum module to target specific MIDI notes in Superior Drummer 3 by way of some 3rd party software or internal DAW MIDI transformer, the aim being that moving the pedal alone does not cause a transmute (a transmute will always be triggered by a new note). You can achieve the same result by using the ‘Note-Triggered Transition’ setting in Superior Drummer 3.
If you want a more natural feel where the hi-hat continues to transmute whilst opening the hi-hat you should select ‘E-drum Optimised’. With this setting closing the hi-hat will not generate a transmute unless a new hit is triggered. This setting is particularly useful for users with moving hi-hats, such as the Roland VH series, where hitting the hi-hat can cause a deflection into the next more closed articulation before rebounding back. This behaviour in Superior Drummer 3 is only achievable using the internal hi-hat engine.
We are always looking at new ways of improving hi-hat performance for e-drummers but unfortunately due to the non-linear behaviour of a hi-hat, particularly when more open, crossfading alone does not currently provide realistic enough results.
Damian Blunt - Toontrack
Quality Assurance
Betatesting
MintberryCrunchWe are always looking at new ways of improving hi-hat performance for e-drummers but unfortunately due to the non-linear behaviour of a hi-hat, particularly when more open, crossfading alone does not currently provide realistic enough results.
Check out the the Ableton Live acoustic kits (“Session Dums”). They work with crossfades (which are editable in AL Sampler) and the stage transitions are smooth and nice.
travisf131While eliminating transitions on downward travel helps, the real problem for me (and many others) is purely in the unnaturalness of the transitions themselves, regardless of direction.
They sound fine when you’re hitting the hat a lot while opening them (since the distinction between openness levels is less clear), but if you give it one good hit, then open the hat in a somewhat slow and controlled manner, you can very clearly hear the jarring “staircase” of different audio files loading in without any crossfading or smoothness whatsoever.
This sounds incredibly unnatural and basically makes that type of hi hat hit (which is common in lower tempo grooves) unplayable.
I understand it’s a technically challenging problem, but I don’t see why this isn’t a high priority. Nailing down realistic openness transitioning would be a total game changer.
BlueMistralOr the opposite, playing a full open hit and slowly closing it, it keeps ringing the full open sounds and sounds very unnatural
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