Topic: Out of phase snare and toms

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 30 total)

Replied December 27, 2023 at 20:41 #3194624

BlueMistral
Participant

no
Replied December 27, 2023 at 20:48 #3194629

Bear-Faced Cow
Participant

I did a bounce of the preset and imported into my DAW

Aside from no combing, flanging or apparent “whoosh”, there’s appears to be no indication in the above waveforms to support any phase issues. If you experienced phasing issues in SD2, perhaps you need to check the latency of aux inputs or audio channels. I have my doubts that your issue is due to the engineers and producers who probably have far more experience than either of us.

jord

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/
Replied December 27, 2023 at 21:23 #3194646

henrizzle
Participant

Your scree shot clearly shows the snare and tom out of phase. Snare and toms are mic’d from the top and the bottom mic is switched out of phase to not cancel out the top mic. So the wave from should be as the top mic sees it. When you hit the drum the wave from starts with a negative as the skin is depressed. This is drum mic 101 folks. I give up on this Internet forum where people with little or no experience chime in on this stuff doing quotes like “I have my doubts that your issue is due to the engineers and producers who probably have far more experience than either of us”.
Replied December 27, 2023 at 22:18 #3194666

henrizzle
Participant

Additionally, the overheads are not aligned to the snare correctly between the left and right. Your screen shot also shows this. This one is not a big deal and is a very common issue with overhead tracks. I correct the issue in the DAW as well apply time shift to line up with the snare to have more energy.

This post was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by henrizzle.

Replied December 27, 2023 at 22:19 #3194668

henrizzle
Participant

How can you argue these is no issue when the evidence you present clearly shows it?

Replied December 27, 2023 at 22:48 #3194686

henrizzle
Participant

I have checked some of the other kits and it seems consistent across the board (at least for the ones I checked) all the snare and toms are out or phase (+ and – is inverted).

This post was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by henrizzle.

Replied December 28, 2023 at 04:08 #3194833

Bear-Faced Cow
Participant

You are confusing phase with frequency. If you look at the beginning of the waveforms, you will see that They start at the same point. From there the way forms differ. That’s not phase. Big difference.

of course the overheads do not start with the snare. There is enough distance to provide a few samples of delay.

Besides, are you even listening with your ears?

I think George Massenburg knows very well what he is doing

jord

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/

The post has been modified 2 times, last modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Bear-Faced Cow.

Replied December 28, 2023 at 04:31 #3194845

henrizzle
Participant

No confusion here. this is drum mic 101. In your screenshot, the snare and tom tracks have positive and negative in reverse. If you apply the Ø switch it will become correct. You should record some snare and toms using a mic and see for yourself. I think Massenburg knows what he is doing but the engineer that edited these samples does not. SD2 had all the samples inverted. Here only snare and toms. If you look at your overhead waveform those are correct, notice the snare starts by going negative not positive. This is plain as day smoking gun evidence, really not a debate, the facts are in screen shot you supplied.

This post was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by henrizzle.

Replied December 28, 2023 at 05:59 #3194866

Bear-Faced Cow
Participant

I have recorded snares and toms. This is not drum mic 101, but sound 101. The snare and tom are different pitches and resonances. Peaks and valleys in the overall outcome will always occur, but that is not a phase issue. That is how sound in general works. Altering the phase may bring out some other areas, which some engineers do, but you create new peaks and valleys. In your haste to point out a smoking gun in the snare and tom, you overlook one key factor: both waveforms started in the same direction at the same time. After that, what happens is fair game since the frequencies vary. From what you are implying, the pitch would have to be identical, Simply, they are not.

You can try all you want but the proof is in the sound itself. In example I posted, both kit pieces were hit at the same time. Not one at a time. As I said, if there was a phase issue, you would hear either a combing or flanging effect with both kit pieces. That would be an indication that something was wrong, and considering that the producers are there to proof the work, I think Toontrack know very well what they are doing as well. Perhaps, it’s time to stop staring at waveforms on the screen and use your ears and listen to the sounds.

jord

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/

Replied December 28, 2023 at 06:12 #3194875

henrizzle
Participant

Wow, what will it take to get through. Please do me a favor and record a snare with a mic and examine the wave form and put up a screenshot to show everyone. Snare as well as tom hits are from the top side, when you hit the drum it starts with negative energy as the skin is depressed initially. If you have produced drums as you say you should know this well. Kicks on the other hand are recorded from the resonate side so they start with positive energy as the skin pushes out initially. If you have snares and toms inverted they will start opposing the overheads and lead to thin and lack energy sound… which is exactly what you get here out-of-the-box, some might think this sounds clear but it wont get you an energetic mix as it is thin thus the top end tends to cut through. Try inverting your snare and tom track you will immediately notice more energy. This would be a simple enough fix how ever at this point you don’t know what all has been done. These were likely EQ’d while out of phase for example (I can’t speak to the production process as this is not documented). Now you don’t know what you are getting.

Replied December 28, 2023 at 06:36 #3194880

henrizzle
Participant

“in and out of phase”.. while not totally accurate description is typically a phrase used to describe this issue but more accurate phrase is “reverse polarity”. Okay so more specifically this is issue with polarity reversed on the snare and toms. Make sense?

Phase alignment on the overheads against the snare is an issue I expect to see and will correct with a time shift when I want the snare to have more energy. However here, the left and right channels are not aligned to the snare. This can be an artistic choice and I can realign by shifting not a big deal. But… this is one of the things I make sure to measure when I go to setup spaced pair overhead mics… but they always seems to be a little off. I would think these developers would align this because most users don’t know this is happening.

>>>>> The main issue is the reversed polarity on snare and toms.

Replied December 28, 2023 at 06:45 #3194884

Bear-Faced Cow
Participant

If the polarity was reversed between the snare and toms, then they would have started in opposite directions. They are not reversed. Again, you are confusing phase with frequency.

jord

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/

Replied December 28, 2023 at 06:52 #3194885

henrizzle
Participant

Your screen shot clearly shows them reversed. No relation between the snare and toms you are confused… just that they are reversed.

Replied December 28, 2023 at 06:53 #3194886

henrizzle
Participant

Please record a snare with a mic and post the wave form here.

Replied December 28, 2023 at 07:00 #3194890

Bear-Faced Cow
Participant

Better yet, I have a set of tracks recorded by Darrell Thorpe recorded at Sunset Sound.

Drummer hit the snare and tom at roughly the same time. Look at the differences in the frequencies. Are you going to tell me there are polarity issues when the drums sound amazingly full?

jord

Jordan L. Chilcott

Web Site: https://jordanchilcottmusic.com/

This post was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Bear-Faced Cow.
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Out of phase snare and toms

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Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 30 total)