Topic: The Problem with Superior Drummer SDXs

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 17 total)

Replied December 23, 2023 at 10:39 #3192618

Wolfgang
Participant

It’s part of the concept of SDXs to give you the sets as they were set up and recorded. If Eddie Kramer choose only two Toms (like with the Oyster Kit) you get only two Toms within that set. Actually that’s the main reason why I didn’t buy Legacy of Rock. You could add more Toms from other sets with additional instruments but they will always sound different – apart from the fiddly process of getting this to work. If you want to play sets with 4 Toms and 4 Cymbals my advice is to look for other SDXs with bigger drumsets like Fields of Rock, Hitmaker or Death and Darkness. Don’t get too fooled by the names or marketing of the SDXs, with some tweaking and mixing they all offer a quite wide range of sounds.

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: macOS Monterey (12)

1
Thanked by: Paul Andrew
Replied December 23, 2023 at 13:38 #3192666

drumjack52
Participant

It’s not so much an issue with individual SDX’s but SD3 itself. You simply add instruments using the aptly named ‘add instrument’ tab that’s in the upper left of the main screen in the second down toolbar. That instrument will always be in that vicinity – you can’t add anything to the part of the main screen that shows the kit. For example I use Death & Darkness and do stuff that requires 4 rack toms – none of the presets have 4. So I add the 4th via the ‘add instrument’ button. Take care of routing in the mixer and I use a customized MIDI assignment preset and done.

As to the rest one really needs to read the SD3 manual and search on YouTube. Each user’s kit setup is different and that makes it impossible for Toontrack to have presets that work with what one may have. Even if SD3 does have a preset that seems to work be aware that there might be misassignments for the MIDI. For example the General MIDI preset has several errors in it for the rack toms.

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: macOS High Sierra (10.13)
Jack
aka musicman691 on other forums
Superior Drummer 3.4.0
Area 33 1.0.0
Death and Darkness 1.0.1
PT 2021.6
OSX 10.13.6
3.46 GHz hex core 2012 MacPro 48 gig ram

2
Thanked by: Paul Andrew and Brad
Replied December 23, 2023 at 17:49 #3192761

pumpkinking
Participant

I like to think of SDXs like this: I am walking into a recording venue, and the production crew has setup a specific kit configuration for me to play. So, I am playing someone else’s kit with a particular sound in mind. It is tempting to think I’m playing my kit made to sound like another one, but that will lead to the frustration that you describe. Initially, I tried to add instruments to assign each of my ekit triggers when the SDX base kit was smaller, but I have since stopped that because of the effort involved and how that effort was not repaid in improving the experience of using the SDX.

Here is a good example: in the Legacy SDX, Eddie Kramer setup Charlie Watts’ kit with one rack tom and one floor tom (presumably as it was done during some of the original recording sessions). This setup will force a particular playing style that will in turn give you sticking and sound in good alignment with Stones tracks. If you instead try to fill that Legacy kit out to 2 rack toms and 2 floor toms, yes it might match your ekit better and allow you to play more uniformly across all of the SDXs, but it will produce a different result than was intended by the Kramer/Watts setup.

So I have since learned to choose presets not only based on sound, but also on the configuration I would like to use. As an example: I have two kick drums in my ekit, and there are a few SDXs that natively support 2 kicks (D&D/Death and Area 33 are the two I have) . While I have a custom setup with the SD3 Core that uses both kicks (one through an added instrument), really I get a better experience with I pick one of the SDX presets that has both in place.

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: macOS Sonoma (14)

2
Thanked by: Paul Andrew and Brad
Replied December 23, 2023 at 19:30 #3192812

Brad
Participant

Hi Paul,

A ton of good points here, very little to add, check out the manual and search for “Add Instrument”, explains the process pretty clearly. One thing, if I may, when you have more hardware triggers than a preset/kit, say rack toms, add the same rack tom and change the pitch. If one doesn’t drastically deviate from the original, you end up with more sonic consistency. As Jack pointed out, you may need to “play” with MIDI a bit.

my $.02 CAD

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: macOS Ventura (13)
Mac Studio M1 Max, RAM 64 GB, 1TB Drive, OSX 12.x/13.x and Windows 10 (VM)
DAW: Studio One Pro (always up to date)
DTX Express III (Extreme triggers), Nektar LX88
OWC Thunderbay Mini (4 X 1TB Sata SSD), Express 4M2 (4 X 2TB M.2 SSD), Envoy Express (1TB M.2 SSD)
Presonus Quantum, Faderport & Faderport 8
Black Lion Sparrow Mk2 A/D, FMR-RNP-RNC, MIDI Xpress 128, BM5A, KRK VXT4, Equator D5
2020 Macbook Pro 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD Audio(mobile rig)

2
Thanked by: Paul Andrew and drumjack52

Replied December 23, 2023 at 20:41 #3192844

bpjacobsen
Participant

Brad wrote:

Hi Paul,

A ton of good points here, very little to add, check out the manual and search for “Add Instrument”, explains the process pretty clearly. One thing, if I may, when you have more hardware triggers than a preset/kit, say rack toms, add the same rack tom and change the pitch. If one doesn’t drastically deviate from the original, you end up with more sonic consistency. As Jack pointed out, you may need to “play” with MIDI a bit.

my $.02 CAD

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: macOS Ventura (13)

This is the same issue I posted in another thread. Points above are perfectly stated. An SDX pack is by no means always going to be load and play when you are using a custom e kit with more pads than what is in the kits. I have gotten really good at adding the kits and find the easiest way to map is to just go to midi settings, tap your pad then select the instrument from the dropdown to assign it. easy peasy, lemon squeezy. I had to use custom notes in edrummin to match SD3. then from there, I have had to use the midi mapper like I mentioned above to correct pads to play the correct sound. took a lot of playing around and reading etc but got it down pretty good.

Legacy of Rock at first, I was ready to sell it b/c o the lack of pads but now I understand even better why it’s like this and just need to nail down getting the consistency of sound on some of the presets. That said, I still need some clarification on this: “when you have more hardware triggers than a preset/kit, say rack toms, add the same rack tom and change the pitch”. Perhaps, I did it wrong but on some of the presets, the extra rack toms are dry and don’t have the amb etc applied like the stock ones. Is it actually possible to truly add a rack tom that will take on the presets of a stock one? Based on the add instruments section of the manual, it appears that can be accomplished with the Route Close Mics to Mixer Channels option? Hopefully, I can enable this after the fact. I will play with it some more. hopefully that is it. Still lots to learn w/ the mixing aspects of this.

This post was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by bpjacobsen.

Replied December 23, 2023 at 21:03 #3192857

Brad
Participant

bpjacobsen wrote:

Brad wrote:

Hi Paul,

A ton of good points here, very little to add, check out the manual and search for “Add Instrument”, explains the process pretty clearly. One thing, if I may, when you have more hardware triggers than a preset/kit, say rack toms, add the same rack tom and change the pitch. If one doesn’t drastically deviate from the original, you end up with more sonic consistency. As Jack pointed out, you may need to “play” with MIDI a bit.

my $.02 CAD

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: macOS Ventura (13)

This is the same issue I posted in another thread. Points above are perfectly stated. An SDX pack is by no means always going to be load and play when you are using a custom e kit with more pads than what is in the kits. I have gotten really good at adding the kits and find the easiest way to map is to just go to midi settings, tap your pad then select the instrument from the dropdown to assign it. easy peasy, lemon squeezy. I had to use custom notes in edrummin to match SD3. then from there, I have had to use the midi mapper like I mentioned above to correct pads to play the correct sound. took a lot of playing around and reading etc but got it down pretty good.

Legacy of Rock at first, I was ready to sell it b/c o the lack of pads but now I understand even better why it’s like this and just need to nail down getting the consistency of sound on some of the presets. That said, I still need some clarification on this: “when you have more hardware triggers than a preset/kit, say rack toms, add the same rack tom and change the pitch”. Perhaps, I did it wrong but on some of the presets, the extra rack toms are dry and don’t have the amb etc applied like the stock ones. Is it actually possible to truly add a rack tom that will take on the presets of a stock one? Based on the add instruments section of the manual, it appears that can be accomplished with the Route Close Mics to Mixer Channels option? Hopefully, I can enable this after the fact. I will play with it some more. hopefully that is it. Still lots to learn w/ the mixing aspects of this.

This post was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by bpjacobsen.

Here try this, I use this because I have 2 toms on my Yamaha kit….

It’s the default Legacy of Rock kit with an added tom, from the same kit, but tuned up.

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: macOS Sonoma (14)
Mac Studio M1 Max, RAM 64 GB, 1TB Drive, OSX 12.x/13.x and Windows 10 (VM)
DAW: Studio One Pro (always up to date)
DTX Express III (Extreme triggers), Nektar LX88
OWC Thunderbay Mini (4 X 1TB Sata SSD), Express 4M2 (4 X 2TB M.2 SSD), Envoy Express (1TB M.2 SSD)
Presonus Quantum, Faderport & Faderport 8
Black Lion Sparrow Mk2 A/D, FMR-RNP-RNC, MIDI Xpress 128, BM5A, KRK VXT4, Equator D5
2020 Macbook Pro 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD Audio(mobile rig)

Replied December 23, 2023 at 21:54 #3192884

bpjacobsen
Participant

So I see now that the route mic thing does not copy amb and other affect settings and only copies mic position. I’m trying to wrap my head around the mixer more and understand better how to copy the sound settings between toms.

Replied December 23, 2023 at 22:34 #3192904

bpjacobsen
Participant

Bingo! just finally figured out I needed to select ‘enable bleed from all instruments under the out 1/2 under Front. At least for the WalkTheEarth preset. it’s a matter of hitting the stock preset tom to see what mixer buses etc are triggered that dn get triggered by the added toms then clicking enable bleed from all instruments on that bus. Now they all sound consistent.

Replied December 23, 2023 at 22:43 #3192909

Brad
Participant

bpjacobsen wrote:

Bingo! just finally figured out I needed to select ‘enable bleed from all instruments under the out 1/2 under Front. At least for the WalkTheEarth preset. it’s a matter of hitting the stock preset tom to see what mixer buses etc are triggered that dn get triggered by the added toms then clicking enable bleed from all instruments on that bus. Now they all sound consistent.

Excellent!

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: macOS Sonoma (14)
Mac Studio M1 Max, RAM 64 GB, 1TB Drive, OSX 12.x/13.x and Windows 10 (VM)
DAW: Studio One Pro (always up to date)
DTX Express III (Extreme triggers), Nektar LX88
OWC Thunderbay Mini (4 X 1TB Sata SSD), Express 4M2 (4 X 2TB M.2 SSD), Envoy Express (1TB M.2 SSD)
Presonus Quantum, Faderport & Faderport 8
Black Lion Sparrow Mk2 A/D, FMR-RNP-RNC, MIDI Xpress 128, BM5A, KRK VXT4, Equator D5
2020 Macbook Pro 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD Audio(mobile rig)

Replied December 24, 2023 at 05:14 #3193008

Paul Andrew
Participant

Wolfgang,

Excellent answer. You confirmed what I had already suspected, but didn’t do my due diligence before purchasing this SDX. It’s an expensive lesson to learn, tho! I can’t imagine that I’m the only one to get peeved about this, but this is never mentioned anywhere in any of the documentation I’ve read or videos I’ve watched. It’s an excellent product & they have so many SDXs available, I don’t see the need to keep this critical piece of information on the down-low. As far as the whole adding toms to the existing presets goes, that seems to be a whole separate can of worms in regards to getting the new tom to match the sound of the existing ones. I’m sure it’s not like differential equations once you know the secret, but I’m not very impressed with the job that Toontrack seems to be doing in making this information readily available. But I’m also willing to admit that maybe I haven’t been very thorough in my quest to find out what I need to know.

As far as one of the alternative SDXs that you mentioned (Fields of Rock, Hitmaker or Death and Darkness), which would you recommend? I generally like the big, boomy toms, Phil Collins/Genesis-style, so the obvious one seems to be Hitmaker, but I would appreciate your input.

One last question: If you have a preset that has more toms on it than I actually have on my kit, how do you map only the ones that you want to use? I haven’t figured out where to configure that specifically yet.

Thanks again!

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: Windows 10

Replied December 24, 2023 at 05:36 #3193012

Paul Andrew
Participant

Jack,

Never thought I would be getting drum software advice from Quark! Rom, maybe, tho… Which one of the rules of acquisition covers e-drums…? 😉

I’ve used the Add Instrument function several times to add toms to presets, but it seems a bit clunky and isn’t as thorough as it could be. I haven’t connected the dots in regards to what I need to route in the mixer to get it to match the existing toms yet. That’s on my shortlist of critical need-to-know details as I continue the SD3 journey!

If it was me, I would have built a custom function that included routing the mics to the proper busses along with being able to match the effects as well. That makes it a lot more complex, obviously, but those are the kinds of enhancements that maybe they will include with the next major release.

Replied December 24, 2023 at 06:00 #3193019

Paul Andrew
Participant

Seems like a sensible way to approach the whole SDX experience!

As you and others have pointed out, I think the lesson learned for me from this is that I need to be more selective in the future and find SDXs that match my kit’s hardware more closely. I didn’t realize that until it was too late, unfortunately. An expensive lesson to learn, but if it leads to the kind of drums I’m looking for in my songs, it will have been worth it. I’m thinking the Hitmaker SDX will be my next purchase since Hugh Padgham is the architect of that one. He’s worked with so many of my favorite artists creating exactly the kind of sound I’m looking for. I’m familiar with his name, but never really noticed he’s worked with that many of my favorite artists.

In regards to your comment about having two kick drums in your ekit, I’m a bit confused as to why, tho. Do you use two different kick drum sounds in your songs? Or maybe you’re not a fan of double bass drum pedals?

Replied December 24, 2023 at 06:19 #3193022

Paul Andrew
Participant

Brad,

That really seems to be the only sensible way to add extra toms to a lot of these presets, since they don’t have additional hardware to support additional toms. It also sounds like a great way to solve the mic/mixing issues that I’ve dealt with from trying to add separate hardware in my attempts to deal with this issue up ’til now.

I definitely need to RTFM. No way around it! I’ve searched for videos on the topic and found a few but none that have covered it in the kind of detail I’m looking for…

I also noticed that you’re a Studio One user, which is my preferred DAW. I’ve had pretty good luck using it with SD3 so far, but once you get a full production chugging along, I’ve needed to render the audio tracks to keep things under control.

Replied December 24, 2023 at 08:41 #3193049

Wolfgang
Participant

Hi Paul,

can’t say anything about D&D as I don’t own it. I personally love the big Fealds of Rock kits, the Pure Goth is my goto kit. Together with the Stormtrooper Kit this SDX can sound pretty big and boomy. The Hitmaker was a little bit of a positive surprise. I think the marketing is a little bit misleading here as it’s very versatile and offers much more then just sounds “…RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE!”. Not used it that much but the Storyletter Kit became my standard kit for reahearsals.

You could save different MIDI mappings if you need to reassing the toms. Save them together with your SD3 presets and you have everything remapped per kit.

Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.3.6
Operating system: macOS Monterey (12)

Replied December 24, 2023 at 09:18 #3193052

Mark King
Participant

You can always build a kit on the kit that fits your needs. Take one if the stock kits that has what you need and just swap out the drums to whichever ones you want from any library. Ok you don’t get the presets and get the settings from the library you choose to do this with but it does work

SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors
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The Problem with Superior Drummer SDXs

Superior Drummer 3 Help

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 17 total)