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Hi All,
I am keen to understand if anyone has seen an improvement in Hi Hat performance using E-Drums with the new 3.2.5 settings. There have been lots of comments on this forum about a lack of smoothness in transition between open articulations when using an electronic hi-hat and E-Drums. This is particularly the case with Yamaha RHH135 as the Yamaha module (eg DTX900) only has a single open and single closed articulation and MIDI note for each of edge and bow.
I have not been able to test these new settings in SD3 as I am still in COVID 19 lockdown in Australia and my module is in for LCD screen repair – I cannot get it back whilst in lockdown.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated – especially from any Yamaha RHH135 users but even Roland feedback will help. I have been using a Hi-Hat fix from MintberryCrunch which has worked really well however it does require running through a DAW so does not work in standalone SD3.
It looks as thought the new “Openness Transitions” setting in E-Drums/MIDI-In has been developed to help this issue. The “E-Drum Optimized” setting says “Changes articulation only when the pedal is moving up or when a new note is played”. Does it also work when the pedal is moving down to smooth the transitions from fully or partly open towards closed articulation ?
Has anyone got any feedback and does it improve the realism in playing a Yamaha RHH135 or Roland electronic hi-hat ? cheers Andrew
Dell Precision 7730, i7 6 Core 2.6 GHz, 128GB RAM, 1TB SSD and 3 x 2TB SSD, Windows 11, Cubase Pro 14, SD3 plus a variety of SDX's and EZX's, Orchestral Percussion, EZBASS, RME BabyFace Pro FS and KRK V4 monitors. Modified Yamaha DTX900, DTXPRESS4 and Edrumin10 triggering SD3. Yamaha pads/cymbals and Roland VH-10 HiHat. PDP Maple acoustic kit for live playing.
Hey Andrew, the new implemented SD3 features resolve the transition issue (there are 2 fix options: absolutely no transitions and transitions only from close to open).
But you’ll still need my transition fix (when using Roland or Yamaha modules) in order to get rid of ringing on fast pedal stepping (the new “splash sensitivity” setting cannot fix it) and maintain the option of being able to play Pedal Splashes. 🙂
Also, there is no mute on open sounds when the pedal reaches fully closed state but hasn’t generated a Pedal Chick note (which will be the case at least on Roland modules when softly closing the hihat / softly depressing the pedal). You’ll get this “mute feature” using my fix engine.
Hi,
Historically the default hi-hat settings in Superior Drummer 3 (and earlier iterations) attempts to mimic the behaviour of a real hi-hat i.e. when you move the pedal to a more closed or open position the ringing sounds transition to more closed or open sounds. We refer to this process as transmuting. For the majority of users in a real playing scenario this behaviour has worked well.
One area where transmuting has caused some problems for users has been with moving hi-hats such as the Roland VH-13. If you are playing a groove with the hi-hat in the open position sometimes hitting the pad would cause a significant enough CC deviation to cause a transmute to the next more closed articulation. This could occasionally sound slightly choppy and feel unnatural.
The new ‘E-drum Optimised’ setting continues to transmute with pedal movement only as the hi-hat is opened but no longer transmutes with pedal movement to a more closed articulation. This prevents a transmute to a more closed articulation when hitting the pad. We chose not to set a closed CC threshold to mute open hi-hats as this continues to cause the same problems with unwanted transmutes with moving hats. In a real playing world there is unlikely to be a scenario where a closed pedal note is not generated when closing the hi-hats although if you very gently close a Roland hi-hat a closed pedal note will not be generated so the open hit will continue to ring out.
The new foot splash settings allow you to turn off splashes completely (useful for rock or metal players that want to keep time by stomping on the hat pedal) or you can set the sensitivity to make it more or less easy to generate a foot splash.
Hope this helps!
Damian Blunt - Toontrack
Quality Assurance
Betatesting
1
Thanked by: BradThanks Damian for your detailed explanation – very helpful and clears up a lot. Unfortunately I don’t have my Yamaha DTX900 module with me to be able to “test” these new settings as it is in for repair and I cannot access it due to a long and protracted lockdown ! I don’t use hi-hat splashes so this is not a concern for me. What I do want to be able to do is a fast cymbal roll on the hi-hat and gradually lift the pedal all the way up and then gradually close it all the way down to generate a foot chick (or closed pedal note) with a continuous roll. When I do this I want to have a relatively smooth transition from fully closed to fully open and then again a smooth transition back to fully closed. Is this likely to give a smooth transition or is it always going to sound like an electronic replication of a hi-hat due to the “sharp” transition that occurs at whatever CC value generates the next articulation. And if so am I likely to have a less noticeable transition with all the 8 available articulations (not including closed pedal) or is it better to not have as many articulations ie say 4-6 of these rather than all 8 (where 8 are actually available).
I cant wait to get my module back so I can experiment with these settings but in the meantime would love to hear your thoughts or those of any other e-drummers. Obviously the acoustic hi hat is the most difficult instrument to replicate with electronic hi-hat triggers using cc values along with edge/bow and bell articulations (where available – bell not an option with Yamaha RHH135). cheers, Andrew
Dell Precision 7730, i7 6 Core 2.6 GHz, 128GB RAM, 1TB SSD and 3 x 2TB SSD, Windows 11, Cubase Pro 14, SD3 plus a variety of SDX's and EZX's, Orchestral Percussion, EZBASS, RME BabyFace Pro FS and KRK V4 monitors. Modified Yamaha DTX900, DTXPRESS4 and Edrumin10 triggering SD3. Yamaha pads/cymbals and Roland VH-10 HiHat. PDP Maple acoustic kit for live playing.
What I do want to be able to do is a fast cymbal roll on the hi-hat and gradually lift the pedal all the way up and then gradually close it all the way down to generate a foot chick (or closed pedal note) with a continuous roll. When I do this I want to have a relatively smooth transition from fully closed to fully open and then again a smooth transition back to fully closed. Is this likely to give a smooth transition or is it always going to sound like an electronic replication of a hi-hat due to the “sharp” transition that occurs at whatever CC value generates the next articulation.
You’ll have these sharp CC border points in SD3 (there are no crossfades between open-closed stages). Check out Ableton Live multi mic drum kits in AL “Sampler” -> you’ll have smooth crossfades there (and it’s the only hihat engine I’ve ever seen with crossfades (that are even adjustable)).
Thanks “MintberryCrunch”. As you know I have been using your fix successfully for a while now. Crossfades between open-closed stages in SD3 would seem to be part of the solution and I notice that this was part of a previous thread discussion.
Topic: Non-smooth transition between hi-hat samples | Toontrack
Damian and Toontrack team – is cross fading for hi-hat articulations under consideration as a fix and if so is it likely to do what we think it should ? The drum and cymbal sounds in SD3 are fantastic and so close to acoustic sounds. An improvement in hi-hat realism would be the icing on the cake and would set Superior Drummer 3 apart from all other options. cheers, Andrew
Dell Precision 7730, i7 6 Core 2.6 GHz, 128GB RAM, 1TB SSD and 3 x 2TB SSD, Windows 11, Cubase Pro 14, SD3 plus a variety of SDX's and EZX's, Orchestral Percussion, EZBASS, RME BabyFace Pro FS and KRK V4 monitors. Modified Yamaha DTX900, DTXPRESS4 and Edrumin10 triggering SD3. Yamaha pads/cymbals and Roland VH-10 HiHat. PDP Maple acoustic kit for live playing.
I see that opening and closing the Hihat without hitting the pad, the controller still sends CC values even when selecting the new edrum optimized settings, which still gives me weird open articulations, what we need is for SD3 to ignore any CC from the controller if the hihat is not hit so it only triggers the pedal closed articulation and not the whole CC range of open articulations…
Thanks Damian for your detailed explanation – very helpful and clears up a lot. Unfortunately I don’t have my Yamaha DTX900 module with me to be able to “test” these new settings as it is in for repair and I cannot access it due to a long and protracted lockdown ! I don’t use hi-hat splashes so this is not a concern for me. What I do want to be able to do is a fast cymbal roll on the hi-hat and gradually lift the pedal all the way up and then gradually close it all the way down to generate a foot chick (or closed pedal note) with a continuous roll. When I do this I want to have a relatively smooth transition from fully closed to fully open and then again a smooth transition back to fully closed. Is this likely to give a smooth transition or is it always going to sound like an electronic replication of a hi-hat due to the “sharp” transition that occurs at whatever CC value generates the next articulation. And if so am I likely to have a less noticeable transition with all the 8 available articulations (not including closed pedal) or is it better to not have as many articulations ie say 4-6 of these rather than all 8 (where 8 are actually available).
I cant wait to get my module back so I can experiment with these settings but in the meantime would love to hear your thoughts or those of any other e-drummers. Obviously the acoustic hi hat is the most difficult instrument to replicate with electronic hi-hat triggers using cc values along with edge/bow and bell articulations (where available – bell not an option with Yamaha RHH135). cheers, Andrew
Superior Drummer 3 version: 3.2.5
Operating system: Windows 10
With the 8 articulations loaded performance should be very good and in normal playing situations extremely close to acoustic hi-hats. With the later Superior Drummer 3 libraries a lot of effort has gone into capturing the transitions from closed to open that give the most realistic performance with e-drums. During editing and development of these libraries we also A/B with acoustic hi-hats to try to get the most authentic performance (some of the hi-hats in the later SDX’s are from my own personal collection so this makes the process of A/B’ing a little easier). Of course we are always looking at new technology and ways of improving things but I really believe the new E-drum Optimised setting provides a great alternative to the default especially with moving hi-hats.
Regarding cross-fading, we have discussed this in the past but playing two samples simultaneously could potentially create extra problems such as phase and comb-filtering issues. It is also a compromise in its own way as you are doubling the sound of physical interaction of the two cymbals at the mid-point. That’s not to say it isn’t an area worthy of further exploration.
Damian Blunt - Toontrack
Quality Assurance
Betatesting
I see that opening and closing the Hihat without hitting the pad, the controller still sends CC values even when selecting the new edrum optimized settings, which still gives me weird open articulations, what we need is for SD3 to ignore any CC from the controller if the hihat is not hit so it only triggers the pedal closed articulation and not the whole CC range of open articulations…
- This post was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by BlueMistral.
You can use the ‘Note-Triggered Transitions’ setting for this
Damian Blunt - Toontrack
Quality Assurance
Betatesting
Oh I see, I will experiment more with this then, but so far great update for edrummers playing a moving hat
Regarding cross-fading, we have discussed this in the past but playing two samples simultaneously could potentially create extra problems such as phase and comb-filtering issues. It is also a compromise in its own way as you are doubling the sound of physical interaction of the two cymbals at the mid-point. That’s not to say it isn’t an area worthy of further exploration.
Though the SD hihat engine is already quite superior I would say it’s definitely worthy of further exploration. If you want a perfect imitation of the behaviour of a real hihat there cannot be a switching of open-closed stages. Check out how it works in AL sampler -> it’s super smooth and I could not notice any artifacts. I think it’s not a problem with “crashy” cymbal/open hihat sounds 🙂
Hi Toontrack Development team. I think there are many of us who LOVE SD3 and think it is an AWESOME product but feel that there is one weakness pointed out by many users on this forum and other internet posts – the lack of smoothness and realism in Hi Hat transitions when used by e-drummers. It looks like there is a great opportunity here for Toontrack to take it to the next level and pretty much eliminate the one “weakness” identified. There are many experienced users/MIDI programmers such as some of those in this thread that are giving very definitive and informed options to improve. I echo MintberryCrunch and request that “it’s definitely worthy of further exploration”.
There would be lots of positive comments to a thread “Toontrack have fixed the Hi Hat transition issues and have THE BEST AND MOST REALISTIC electronic hi hat”. The challenge is there for the taking – over to you Toontrack.
cheers, Andrew
Dell Precision 7730, i7 6 Core 2.6 GHz, 128GB RAM, 1TB SSD and 3 x 2TB SSD, Windows 11, Cubase Pro 14, SD3 plus a variety of SDX's and EZX's, Orchestral Percussion, EZBASS, RME BabyFace Pro FS and KRK V4 monitors. Modified Yamaha DTX900, DTXPRESS4 and Edrumin10 triggering SD3. Yamaha pads/cymbals and Roland VH-10 HiHat. PDP Maple acoustic kit for live playing.
Well I’ve tried it but I don’t notice any difference to the “E-drum optimised” setting, the CC value still jumps when pressing/depressing the pedal without hitting the cymbal pad, resulting in opening articulations, specially 5 and 6 open edge, being triggered and ruining splash and closed pedal sounds….
Well I’ve tried it but I don’t notice any difference to the “E-drum optimised” setting, the CC value still jumps when pressing/depressing the pedal without hitting the cymbal pad, resulting in opening articulations, specially 5 and 6 open edge, being triggered and ruining splash and closed pedal sounds….
Have you checked to see if your module is generating low level tip or edge articulations when triggering a footsplash? This is the only thing I can think would cause the behaviour you are describing
Damian Blunt - Toontrack
Quality Assurance
Betatesting
Well I’ve tried it but I don’t notice any difference to the “E-drum optimised” setting, the CC value still jumps when pressing/depressing the pedal without hitting the cymbal pad, resulting in opening articulations, specially 5 and 6 open edge, being triggered and ruining splash and closed pedal sounds….
Have you checked to see if your module is generating low level tip or edge articulations when triggering a footsplash? This is the only thing I can think would cause the behaviour you are describing
Not really, but when I play a simple pedal chick the open pedal and the closed edge get triggered, the open pedal triggers no matter how fast or slow I’m playing chicks as soon as the hihat pad is up.
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