Nicholas DiFabbioDoes anyone else rarely use the included SD 3 kits? I usually always search through a few options then invariably choose another sound bank (Nashville, Americana, Pop Rock or CV EZXs) Something in the attacks or ambience just never works for me.
Mark KingThey are the only my kits I do use. I’m a drummer and they are infinitely more playable than the old sd2 libraries
SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors
Nicholas DiFabbioThanks for that I’ll keep trying!
Bear-Faced CowYou are comparing a general purpose core library (and you didn’t specify whether it was a raw kit or preset you were using) to a genre specific mix ready library with a much smaller footprint. If they are the raw kits, then you have a bunch of frequencies eating up the the mix, thus requiring some processing in order to better sit in a mix.
Despite my use of both Rock Foundry and Legacy of Rock SDXs as they are more inline with my stuff, I also use the core library for a number of drum mixes many times because I can better fit them into a mix.
That being said, if you find that other libraries are doing the trick for you, use them. That’s what they are all there for. In the end, it’s all about the music.
jord
Nicholas DiFabbioYes thank you. Haven’t found anything usable yet but these comments will help.
duotone_Use them all the time, try the Pearl & Yamaha kits, they should be listed under CLEAN Kits in SD3. They have minimal processing & sound more real/natural to my ears.
Nicholas DiFabbioDo not want to be mis interpreted, SD and Toontrack are amazing tools and a miracle for someone like myself who was using Drumdrops in the 70s and razor blades in the 80s. I frequently remind myself how much this technology is helping my recordings. I just am always let down when I explore the core kits and presets, weak and too wet.
But as I’ve said, I’ll keep trying.
POD_1I also find it hard to get a decent sound from SD3 Kits, but it’s down to my lack of experience mixing drums rather than the SD3 library, which is awesome. You can buy some amazing sounding presets online to get you close to what you want, then tweak them to your taste.
Sounds like some people felt personally attacked by your post lol relax lads
Nicholas DiFabbioThanks POD. I’m starting to get the picture now as you and and others have mentioned tweaking the drums in SD3 . I don’t tweak the drums in any EZX or SDX. I take it on faith that the engineers working on those sounds have better ears and better equipment regarding drums than I do. Sometimes I’ll replace a piece but other than that I looking for a vibe to complement the song and just don’t get that with the SD kits. Also, and I know this is nit picky, searching seems more difficult with so many choices. If I choose a kit and reject it, I have to find again a similar whose signature kit it’s in three layers deep in the presets. I will say again, I love SD 3 for all it’s amazing features, but I don’t use its kits. This has been an illuminating discussion though, thanks again.
Bear-Faced CowWith a possible argument against the New York SDX bundle, The SDXs are pretty much genre specific, thus making it more predictable as to what to expect from both the genre and the producer behind it. That really isn’t what I would call blind faith. In many situations, I have a pretty good idea of what I am going to reach for, primarily because I know it works for that particular song. However, I will still mix and match kit pieces and tweak them according to the needs of the song.I will also be applying further processing as required in the mix. The only things I really won’t do with them is try to wedge them into a different genre, unless I am looking for something totally unusual. Trying to make them into something they are not it’s more an exercise of unnecessary work accompanied with possible disappointment.
The core library is a far different animal. It is not genre specific, nor should it be. Tweaking and processing is going to be a requirement to make it fit in any Song. I have had the odd rare occasion where a preset worked with a slight amount of tweaking, or Replacing the snare to match the energy of the song. However, I have found that to be few and far between. To me, it’s all good.
Blind faith in a raw kit or preset within the core library sounds more like a setup for disappointment. The processing that you are used to within an SDX would need to be applied to a kit piece in the core library in order to have a similar effect. The fact that you dated yourself back to the 70s (which is actually when I started) implies the ability to go old school. Thus, applying EQ curves that are more widely used within a genre should not be considered an issue as you would be doing this on a raw recorded kit piece. Even as you go through the presets within the core library, you’ll find EQ on the majority of them to carve out frequencies which eat up a kit piece’s energy (thus addressing the weakness part). The wet ambiance part is even simpler: don’t use it if it does not work for the song). It’s a simple as turning down a channel fader or turning off the bleed altogether. Or, I have had certain mix situations which required more of a Glynn Johns type of approach. Or, if you are more 80s, you would be drenching your kits in reverb. Bottom line is that the core library is designed to be moulded and tweaked to fit your needs. However, I find that it is very rare that it would just work right off the bat with a raw kit or preset (they’re good but they never suit my needs).
And, after all that, if you are finding that an SDX or an EZX better meet your needs, you shouldn’t have to make yourself feel guilty for using it. Having access to so many well-known producers and studios (and in some cases, rare equipment) is one of the things I enjoy about using SD3.
jord
rizcreatureI do agree completely with you Nicholas. As someone who has spent years in control rooms listening to drummers completely unprocessed the SD3 samples are not hit hard enough. I have been stacking massively and upping bottom EQs to try and get the punch. At the end of the day though the snare and kick can be fixed with stacking, transients and compression and stacking my own samples. Unfortunately though cymbals can’t. A rocking drummer will be hitting the cymbals hard as well. I can’t imagine anyone who has sat in on rock drum sessions over the years would think that the hits are hard enough in SD3. I’ve heard many drummers where you would barely even touch the kit in the mix as the playing has such as rocking dynamic. If you can sit in front of a snare and hit it hard enough to give you goosebumps then you should be able to get the same out of a sample library.
I imagine that for metal and whatnot you probably can get just what you are looking for, but if you want something in the vain of green day, nirvana, oasis, etc I I suspect you’ll need to look elsewhere.
rizcreatureAs an update to my above comment. I have now bought Hansa and it gives me exactly what I am looking for. Incredible expansion pack.
1
Thanked by: Nicholas DiFabbioBear-Faced CowWhile it is great that you have found an SDX that works for you, you can ask yourself what’s changed between the two libraries. If you are going to say that the drums are hit harder, I can tell you that you are wrong since Norman Garschke is the same drummer on both of those libraries, as well as a few others that I own, He is quite consistent as a session drummer.
The main difference between those two libraries are the rooms, Recording chains and producer. That, along with the drummer, are well known factors to anybody who sat behind a mixing board. Considering that the core library is recorded with full headroom and transients intact, unless processed, they are not going to sound in your face in their raw state. It doesn’t matter how hard you hit them. The only way they are going to sound in your face is by processing them to both increase the volume and reduce the dynamics (The same foundation of the loudness wars). As well, considering that the drums get their characteristic from the room, you have to be processing the ambient channels as well as the close mic channels. Considering that there are 11 ambient channels that can be used at any given time, there is no reason why the cymbals could not be pushed through their own channel and squashed to bring them in your face. One are the kits I use in a few of my mixes is the pearl masterworks kit with no issues getting it in your face, cymbals and all, without any need to stack (although I do have some presets that I do stack to bring out certain characteristics necessary for a song). I’m not stating anything new here. These are basic concepts for anybody who sat behind a mixing board. Not to mention some sound design 101 here.
Mind you, there are some chains that you are not going to be able to create with an SD3 alone. Producers such as Bob Rock utilize subwoofers. For that you would need your DAW to help process the drums.
Admittedly, the only thing I really like about Hansa is the marble room. Perhaps I might’ve spent the $180 US to get it if it were not for the fact that SD3 gives me the ability to re-create that room for any kit using it’s reverbs as well as other plug-ins to shape the sound. Not to mention having that and plenty of other rooms within my DAW.
jord
Nicholas DiFabbioThanks for that detailed, technical response.
My original post addressed what was, and is, for me the simple issue of feeling like the sound, power and vibe is going to serve the current song I’m working on. And invariably, another libraries’ energy and overall feeling win out over the SD 3 sounds. I always find it curious that this amazingly deep and capable tool that Toontrack has developed, doesn’t for me, translate over to the sounds that came with it. My go to’s are Nashville, Americana and Indie Folk. Just my humble opinion.
Bear-Faced CowI always find it curious that this amazingly deep and capable tool that Toontrack has developed, doesn’t for me, translate over to the sounds that came with it.
Sure it does, but you have to bring it out of it. That’s part of what makes SD3 “amazingly deep and capable.“ This is always the case with any all purpose library. Specialized genres already have their processing applied. Those are the things that already you get with an SDX.
jord
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