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"Tip" and "Edge" of HiHat. What do you mean?
April 1, 2009
11:34 pm CEST
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Driller
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In the manual for Superior 2,1 it explains how to program the hihat aticulations specifically for Hatstrigger and hatstiptrigger.

It says to hit the "tip" of the hihat for one and the "edge" for the other.

But these terms are synonomous. Surely the tip of the hihat is the edge?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Wikipedia:

Parts of a cymbal

Bell The center of a Cymbal, often raised to a bell-like shape.
Bow The remaining surface of the Cymbal.
Edge or rim The immediate circumference of the instrument.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So which one means the bow? (I guess the bell is not used.)
For me the terms tip/edge both= the rim

Thanks!

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April 1, 2009
11:39 pm CEST
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Olle
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You hit the Bow of your hihat with the Tip of your stick.
You hit the Edge with the Shaft or the Shoulder. /Olof W

April 2, 2009
12:06 am CEST
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Driller
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ORIGINAL: Olle

You hit the Bow of your hihat with the Tip of your stick.
You hit the Edge with the Shaft or the Shoulder. /Olof W

Come on man; you have got to be joking :/

I'm not talking about drumsticks.

We are talking about areas on the surface of the top cymbal of the hihat.

A cymbal has a BOW, a BELL and an EDGE.

In the SD manual it differentiates between what it calls the TIP and the EDGE of the hihat .

I would like to know with which areas these terms correspond IE the BELL, BOW or EDGE.

Don't worry, this won't hurt a bit...

April 2, 2009
3:52 am CEST
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Scott
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FWIW, the manual does describe what those terms are referring to when it comes to the hi hats:

For the hatstrig:

1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTrig’ Articulation
2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
3. Hit your pad on the edge

For the hatstiptrig:

1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
3. Hit your pad on the tip (bow zone)

April 2, 2009
9:03 am CEST
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Driller
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Thanks for the explanation Scott, if that's really the nomenclature used in Superior etc then it is rather unfortunate.

So much so that I need to confirm this.

You are sure that the word "tip" in the manual refers to the bow zone, the bow zone being the majority of the upper surface excluding the center (bell)? 

The reply above from Olle confirms the absurdity of the use of this term.  IE "the tip of a drum stick", which is a legitimate term, but how is the flat surface of a cymbal in any way like the tip of a drumstick?(or the tip of anything else for that matter?).

If this is the case, may I humbly suggest that you change all incidences of the word "tip" in the manual when referring to the bow, for the good of the users?

As you well know the programming of the hihats are central in the quest for a perfectly working E-Drums-Superior/EZ system. 

For such an important part of the programming, this nomenclature has the potential to cause a lot of confusion (it certainly drove to me to distraction).

Sincerely
Driller

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April 2, 2009
1:45 pm CEST
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Scott
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You are sure that the word "tip" in the manual refers to the bow zone, the bow zone being the majority of the upper surface excluding the center (bell)?

Yes, I'm sure.

hatstrig = hitting the hats on the edge
hatstiptrig = hitting the hats on the bow with the tip of the drumstick.

It may seem like a little obtuse to some but we feel that this nomenclature is clear enough for the edrummer and, also, the non drummer to understand.

April 2, 2009
4:20 pm CEST
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Rogue
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ORIGINAL: Driller
The reply above from Olle confirms the absurdity of the use of this term.

I don't think the nomenclature is absurd at all.

I challenge you to hit the edge of the hats with anything but the shank. Hitting the bow could, however, depending on the drummer, be either tip or shank. Just because all our libraries thus far do not feature 'bow shank' articulations does not mean there won't be any in the future.

At the end of the day the 'inconsistency' in referencing cymbal zones has been pointed out before but is justified, at least in term of allowing us an adequate compromise between meaningful distinction and allowance to expand on the articulation set we typically sample.

So I beg to differ but there is nothing wrong with the current nomenclature, especially when you consider that your ears are ultimately the only criteria that should matter 😉

April 3, 2009
2:04 pm CEST
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Driller
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Just to confirm, I meant to say that Olle was using the term "tip" absolutely correctly (if that doesn't sound too patronising) it's just that I wasn't talking about drumsticks.

About the nomenclature:

I don't need to remind you that we are talking about programming the link between the hihats and Superior.  ie linking different parts of the hihat cymbal to a sample in the software.

We are not linking parts of a drumstick to a sample 😉

And what if I use brushes?  Are you then going to start talking about hitting the "brush head" of the cymbal?  It just doesn't make any sense.

You say that you can hit the bow with the tip or the shank of the stick, well you can hit it with a teapot if you like but it's still called the "bow".

I don't see how this affects the expansion of the software.

You seem to be mixing up the anatomical parts of the hihat in the instructions telling you which part to hit in the programming process, with the actual names of the samples in Superior.
 
Remember that with electronic drums it doesn't matter what part of the stick you hit them with, or indeed what you hit them with, the sound linked to that pad or pad part is still the same.

Just to be clear I'm not complaining about what you are calling your samples, I am saying that when you tell someone to hit the "tip" of a cymbal when you mean the bell then this is very confusing.

I agree that our ears are very important criteria but our ears are not used in this programming process.  It's just pushing buttons.

Do you see what I mean?

I might add that this criticism is meant to be helpful to you and the community here and I remain a loyal fan of Toontrack and all its products 🙂

(Edited to use the word sample instead of functionality)

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April 3, 2009
2:46 pm CEST
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Rogue
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Do you see what I mean?

no. but i take your criticism as positive by any means.

I think you are taking articulation names way too literally which is exactly what they are not. 'Hats Tip' is a contraction of 'Hats' and 'Tip', not an anatomical description.

I'm not saying it is a technically accurate association, but it is a relevant one that allows us to have descriptives that can be reused with many different libraries without endless (or numerous) variations that are not useful and would raise countless unnecessary questions in term of relations, particularly from customers who are not drummers by trade.

In other words it is a suitable compromise for a software that is aimed at songwriters, sound engineers, edrummers and other subgroups I may forget here.

April 3, 2009
3:40 pm CEST
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Whitten
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Rogue is right (Olle too actually - I think you were way too harsh on him). The edge of the hi-hat is really only ever played with the shaft of the drumstick.
The term 'tip' comes from the part of the drumstick usually used for the other sound (bow).
I've never heard of a drummer refer to the bow of a hi-hat cymbal, probably because hi-hats are often pretty flat.
So record producers will ask you to play with the tip of your stick on the 'top' of the hi-hat. OR.... they will ask you to play on the edge of the hi-hats (with the shaft).
So, to be pedantic, Toontrack could/should have called the two sounds Tip and Shank, or Bow and Edge. But as it is, most drummers will understand the two sounds being called 'tip' and 'edge'.
There are one or two names Toontrack have given things that aren't 100% correct, but they are Swedish and make a fine virtual drum kit so I don't worry about it.

April 3, 2009
8:18 pm CEST
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Driller
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Do you see what I mean?

no. but i take your criticism as positive by any means.
I think you are taking articulation names way too literally which is exactly what they are not. 'Hats Tip' is a contraction of 'Hats' and 'Tip', not an anatomical description.

ORIGINAL: Whitten

So, to be pedantic, Toontrack could/should have called the two sounds Tip and Shank, or Bow and Edge. But as it is, most drummers will understand the two sounds being called 'tip' and 'edge'.

But I'm not talking about articulation names, sounds or samples!

I'm talking about how the physical structure of the hihat is being described in the manual in the hihat programming section.

Look:

In the instruction manual (as Scott quoted ) it says:

<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad on the tip

I'm not complaining about the name "hatstiptrig".  You can call it hatsjellytrig if you like.

What I am saying is that if you want to explain to someone how to associate this articulation "hatstiptrig" with the bell of the hihat then tell him to hit the bell of the hihat. 

Do not tell him to hit the tip of the hihat because at the very least he will think you're talking about the edge or, not understand at all.

Let me put it another way.  Let's say you want to trigger the sound of breaking glass by hitting the bell of the hihat.  Imagine that this is what you find in the instruction manual:

<For the hatsbreakingglasstrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘Hatsbreakingglass’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad on the breaking glass area

What <3 should say is:  Hit your pad on the bow.

I think we misunderstood each other and unfortunately that makes me look like I'm being petty but I'm really not, honestly 🙂

I regret snapping at Colle and I'm sorry man.  You misunderstood my question but I assumed you were being obtuse.

ORIGINAL: Whitten
They are Swedish and make a fine virtual drum kit so I don't worry about it.

I agree 100% with you (as I said in my last post).  I'm just trying to help clear up what I consider to be a significant oversight in an explanation in the manual in what I'm sure you would agree is a vital area ie the hihats. 

I believe that this would help a lot of users and so ultimately Toontrack.

Once again I'm not trying to bash Toontrack, I'm just trying to help! 🙂

Please have another read of the explanation and see what you think.

Cheers
Driller

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April 3, 2009
9:00 pm CEST
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Scott
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In the instruction manual (as Scott quoted ) it says:

<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad on the tip

Well, if you quoted my entire copy/paste from the manual (see my original post above) you should have copied the '(bow zone)' that directly follows '3. Hit your pad on the tip' (instead of only the part that supports your argument). Seems to make it pretty clear to me when you include that little tid-bit of info.

April 3, 2009
9:30 pm CEST
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Driller
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ORIGINAL: Scott

In the instruction manual (as Scott quoted ) it says:

<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad on the tip

Well, if you quoted my entire copy/paste from the manual (see my original post above) you should have copied the '(bow zone)' that directly follows '3. Hit your pad on the tip' (instead of only the part that supports your argument). Seems to make it pretty clear to me when you include that little tid-bit of info.

 
The reason I left out the term bow zone Scott is because the two terms are contradictory.
 
"Tip" does not mean "bow".
 
Using the two terms together just creates confusion which is why I posted in the first place.
 
Especially since "tip" and "edge" can be used synonymously.
 
If you like then:
 
<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad on the tip (bow zone)
 
This is still confusing. Why use tip at all?
 
Why not just say bow zone? 

 
 

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April 3, 2009
9:37 pm CEST
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Scott
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The term 'tip' is used, as Chris Whitten pointed out, because the 'tip' of a drumstick is used, almost exclusively, to hit the 'bow' section of a hi hat.

There is probably a slight Swedish to English translation problem so allow me to, hopefully, put this issue to rest until the next manual update.

<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad with the tip of your drumstick in the (bow zone) area.

April 3, 2009
10:32 pm CEST
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Driller
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ORIGINAL: Scott

The term 'tip' is used, as Chris Whitten pointed out, because the 'tip' of a drumstick is used, almost exclusively, to the 'bow' section of a hi hat.

There is probably a slight Swedish to English translation problem so allow me to, hopefully, put this issue to rest until the next manual update.

<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad with the tip of your drumstick in the (bow zone) area.

 
Scott I appreciate your (and everyone else's) stamina on this.  I stand by the fact that this is an important addendum to the manual.
 
As for the language thing, well I live in France and if my French was as good as the English of the guys at Toontrack I would be a happy man 🙂
 
http://www.howtosayin.com/skål.html
 
Driller
 
 
 
 
 

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April 3, 2009
10:41 pm CEST
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Scott
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Well, I hold myself partially responsible for the translation oversight. I normally go through the updated manuals with a fine tooth grammar comb  but this one slipped through (I'm sure others have also!)

Thanks for shedding the fluorescents on it. 

April 4, 2009
12:14 pm CEST
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Whitten
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OK, having never read the manual I now see 'Driller' is right on this.
I think the manual should say 'top' instead of tip, maybe with (bow zone) in brackets.
I don't use the term bow ever really, and probably most people would be mystified by that. Hit the top hi-hat bad on the edge for 'edge hit, hit it on top for a tip hit.
Yeah, it's still confusing, but I was never confused by Toontrack's use of the terms 'tip' and 'edge' with regards to the sampled soundfiles, but I can see now what 'Driller' is saying, in the context of the manual text it IS confusing.

June 6, 2009
7:08 am CEST
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DPTrainor
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Diller is correct on all accounts. Why in the world would you argue endlessly with a customer? Listen to him - he is correct. He can hit both the bell and the bow of the hat with the tip. Or any other object for that matter. Even the tip if you are accurate enough. You guys should have more respect. Your nomenclature is fundementally flawed. And you are defending it. Listen to his honest and respectful feedback and modify the the next revision of the manual - it is confusing, in that you are using the anatomy of a stick to describe the anatomy of a cymbal. It is fundementally wrong. You guys have written great software (love it), but you need to communicate with more respect. And write better documentation, otherwise you are going to continue to get endless support questions. Thank you and Best Regards, DPT.

June 6, 2009
2:15 pm CEST
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Scott
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Welcome to the forum Daniel.

There is a line between arguing and discussing. I believe I never crossed into the 'arguing' with my explanation and ultimate conclusions. 

June 6, 2009
4:21 pm CEST
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Driller
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ORIGINAL: Scott

Welcome to the forum Daniel.

There is a line between arguing and discussing. I believe I never crossed into the 'arguing' with my explanation and ultimate conclusions. 

 
Maybe "heated discussion" but I certainly wouldn't say arguing.
 
Anyway, we sorted this matter out (in a perfectly civil fashion) months ago...and Superior Drummer 2.0 remains the best of its breed.

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