HPD-15 and cymbal choke

[Ernest]

Our drummer uses the ROLAND Handsonic HPD-15 with hi-hat and kick pedals to play a virtual trapset. I have set up the HPD-15 to work well with Solo but I can’t get the cymbal choke/mute to work.
On the HPD-15 the way I have set it up is that all the cymbal pads are set to receive Mute messages (Mute Rx: On). Then the left hand strip is set to send the Mute message (Mute Tx: On). This works really well in the Handsonic itself but I can’t get Toontrack Solo etc. to recognize these messages.
In Solo, we only have a different patch for the muted version of each cymbal which requires the reception of a different MIDI not.
Does Solo react to/receive/use Rx messages? Can there be something done with articulation/note on/note off settings?

Topic

[John]

Cymbal choke is performed via AfterTouch on the Cymbal’s Envelope.
Selecting the ‘E-drums’ MIDI Preset in Superior 2 should have this set up.
Check that the Envelop is On and set to AfterTouch on the Cymbal in question.

BR,
John

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[Ernest]

Thanks John. I guess there aren’t many people familiar with this machine on this forum. This is understandable because it isn’t typically used in the way trap set e-drums are.
Anyway, the SPD-15 does not provide/send aftertouch so as far as I can tell from the other posts I’m SOL.

Anybody have any brilliant ideas?

[Mark King]

I used to have the HPD15 and I thought it did send aftertouch. You can turn it on for each pad so it generates AT when pushed. I dont have the pad anymore (over a year) so I can’t remember how to set this up. Try reading the manual.

SD3 with older sdx,s plus Rooms of Hansa and Death & Darkness. Cubase and wavelab current versions. Roland TD50x using all trigger inputs for triggering SD3 only. Windows 11 computer. Various keyboards and outboard gear as well as VST instruments. Acoustic drums: Yamaha 9000 natural wood and Pearl masters. Various snare drums. RME BabyFace Pro FS and Adam A7X monitors

[Ernest]

Mark – thanks for the help. I always read the manual before posting. In fact I usally don’t post until I’ve exhausted all other avenues especially the obvious ones (and blood is running down the wall as a result of banging my head against it). However, this doesn’t mean that I haven’t missed something stupid. And not being a MIDI expert doesn’t really help.

Here is the HPD-15 User Manual:http://media.rolandus.com/manuals/HPD-10_OM.pdf

As far as I can tell there is only one reference to AfterTouch and it is in the MIDI Implementation section on page 110. If you can understand what it means you are a better man than I. If it does mean that it is possible to send/receive these messages then the explanation of how to set this up on the device itself never appears in the manual.

I do hope you are right and even more I do hope you somehow remember how to do it.

[Scott]

I see the manual makes reference to ‘PAf (Polyphonic Aftertouch)’ on page 40 of the manual. I’m not familiar with the HPD-15 to offer any further setup help though.

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[Ernest]

Ooops I posted a link to the wrong manual. Here is the correct link: http://media.rolandus.com/manuals/HPD-15_OM.pdf

But maybe it is implemented the same way on the 15. I need to test it tomorrow…

[Ernest]

Well I tested everything I could and even reset the HPD-15 to factory defaults and still no luck.

There are few links out there that (potentially) confirm that the controller does send AfterTouch:
http://createdigitalnoise.com/viewtopic.php?p=7148
http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_roland_hpd_handsonic_2/

However, I can not figure out how this is implemented.

One thing I did notice is that when the Roll/Hold button on the machine is selected then holding down on a pad sends a “roll” message which changes volume and characteristics depending on pressure. This is AfterTouch of some sort if I’m not mistaken. Would there be a way to re-map this to the envelope cuttoff?

[John]

The Envelope is set with a switch to respond to AfterTouch in the S2 Construct window, so the’s no remapping needed. You need to turn the Envelope section ON for the Cymbal in question as well before sending AfterTouch.

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[Ernest]

The Envelope is set with a switch to respond to AfterTouch in the S2 Construct window, so the’s no remapping needed. You need to turn the Envelope section ON for the Cymbal in question as well before sending AfterTouch.

Thanks John, this is the way I’ve had it set up (evelope button/blue light on; AfterTouch toggle switch selected) for all the cymbals for over a week and it does NOT respond correctly. Now I’m sure the Toontrack software has no bugs in it so either I’m missing some setting in TT or the HPD-15 doesn’t send AfterTouch (at least in the way TT expects).

I realize this is a lot to ask but why don’t you simply take a laptop and a USB/MIDI interface down to your local music store and plug it in to an HPD-15. With your expertise you could solve this mystery in five minutes.

[Ernest]

Yesterday I had a conversation with tech support at Roland. Two different support engineers confirmed that the HPD-15 DOES send polyphonic aftertouch and it is switched on by setting the “Mute Tx” parameter to the “On” state. This is NOT a global setting but is set on a per-pad, per-patch basis. I have subsequently tested this but still there is no aftertouch response from TT Solo – even after a factory reset of the HPD-15 and verifying that the “Mute Tx” setting is “On” for the pad(s) being tested.

So there must be something I’m not doing correctly as far as TT Solo is concerned. What about the enevelope cutoff duration?

Please help!!!

[Ernest]

FYI: The response from Roland

PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THIS EMAIL.
The following information applies to Roland / BOSS / Edirol products sold in the U.S. only.

RE: Support Request #78578
Product: HPD-15
Subject: AfterTouch control
Question: We are trying to get the HPD-15 to work with a MIDI driven software sampler from Toontrack. The Toontrack software implements cymbal choke via MIDI AfterTouch control messages. Although the HPD-15 documentation is far from clear my research has led me to understand that the HPD-15 does in fact use/send polyphonic AfterTouch. However, I am unable to determine how AfterTouch is implemented on the HPD-15. Can you explain how this device can be configured to use/send MIDI AfterTouch messages?

When you apply pressure to a pad, aftertouch is sent if the “Mute Tx” switch is set to ON for that particular pad. See page 52 in the HPD-15 manual for details about the Mute Tx switch.

Sincerely,
Roland US Product Support
M-F 7:30am-5:00pm Pacific Time
323-890-3740

PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THIS EMAIL.

[John]

well,

if your Envelope section looks like this, you should be hearing a pretty sharp choke.
Does it work?

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[Ernest]

Thanks so much. It is finally working!

Now may I suggest perhaps a slightly expanded section in the documentation as far as this is concerned? As I stated earlier I’m by no means a MIDI expert but I have 25+ years of experience in the software industry and I have written quite a bit of technical documentation. Looking at page 23 of the Superior Drummer documentation it is clear that one must click the small button to the right of the envelope to enable envelope processing. Then there is a kind of overview of the different parts of the envelope and how to set the values by dragging the control points or entering values in the value field. One thing I noticed is that (on PC) I don’t have to double-click the value field in order to edit it, a single-click is sufficient. Also, I don’t need to Control-click the control point to get focus, a simple click is sufficient. There is no mention of the units used in the Release (and other) value(s). A little trial and error reveals that it is milliseconds (which of course makes perfect sense) but you can also use ‘s’ for seconds which then gets translated into ms if the value is less than 1.

Then of course there is the maximum value of 2. Anything greater than that gets translated to ‘Off’. Now, in retrospect, after finally getting things to work, it seems obvious that ‘Off’ means “has no effect”. However, this was not at all clear to me before. If the envelope graphic Y axis represents amplitude and the X axis time then the descending leg from the Hold control point to the Release control point – even in the ‘Off’ position – still indecates a volume decay to me. In fact, at first I thought ‘Off’ just meant “at this point the sound is off”. In principle, I would expect to see the Hold-to-Release leg paralell to the X axis in line with the Sustain-to-Hold leg. However, I realize that this is not the “standard” as I think I have seen other envelope graphics that look the same. Anyway, I gues for me if there was simply a note explaining that any Release time greater than 2 seconds results in there being no effect (‘Off’) it would have helped me understand more quickly. For instance, the Decay/Sustain has timing and percentage fields and when the percentage is set to 100 it essentially is turned off yet that field just remains at 100% it doesn’t switch to ‘Off’.

Further along in the documentation in the “Live Applications” section there is a subsection for cymbal chokes (exactly what I needed – perfect!). Now this is much better as far as I’m concerned. A step-by-step example of what needs to be done. Step three states: “Enable the Envelope section”. It would be great to have a reminder here of how to do this. Since your GUI has non-standard “buttons” it is not clear what is “clickable” and what isn’t. A note section for step 5 explaining that a setting of anything greater than 2 seconds turns the Release parameter off therefore rendering the choke ineffective would probably have gotten me to answer quicker. In fact, I may not have come to this forum at all and just gone to Roland to make sure my module was actually sending Aftertouch.

Anyway, just some suggestions. The numbered, step-by-step directions are the way to go in my opinion. I realize that it would make your manual HUGE to do that for each function of Superior but the software is VERY comprehensive and like I said, because the GUI is unique, a clear explanation of all these functions I think is necessary. Trial and error can be lengthy and tiresome prospect with such a deep application.

However, maybe I’m just inexperienced with samplers and those who work with them alot would be able to navigate Superior easily. Or maybe I just missed what I needed to know in the documentation.

Either way, great product. Our drummer is absolutely KILLER on the HPD-15 and he would be able to showcase Superior should you ever be interested. My feeling is that it would be perhaps more impressive than the example you have on Toontrack TV (David Haynes) etc. especially since he uses kick and HH pedals along with it. Here’s an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oN39G2_hFw. The sound is horrible (his sone recorded it with the mic on the camera I think) but you get the idea. Now that it is working live with Solo I can record a much better video.

Thanks again!

[John]

Hi,

great to heat you’re on track now.
Suggestions for improvement are always welcome and I have forwarded this to our “Head of Manuals” so he may take a look at it.
Jose really has some nifty fingers there, I guess he likes the Superior 2 sounds to go with the HPD-15?

BR,
John

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[Kavoni6]

I also have a Roland HPD-15 and had the same problem getting the Hi Hat to work properly. Follow directions in the manual on pages 71 and 72 for the pedal and Hi-Hat set up. I then tried the #R69 Pure Hi-Hat from the Drums instrument list. The HH’s do not sound the best on the HPD. I typically use various rides. Best of luck to anyone else using the HPD-15.

[Author]

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